Foreign Affairs Committee on Nov. 28th, 2024

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to follow that last comment about how it is all discretionary. I'm going to direct my comments to Mr. McSorley, if I may.

One of the concerns I have with this legislation, as we have heard from other witnesses and other members of Parliament, is that there is some potential for political abuse. In particular, it would be due to broad language, which could allow for sanctions against individuals, entities or even entire foreign states.

We know the bill has a low threshold for ministerial discretion, specifically with the “in their opinion” standard. This raises concerns. Many times, New Democrats have raised the issue that the government is not standing up for Canadians around the world, is not doing enough and is making decisions that are political rather than using adequate legal safeguards.

How would you view the effectiveness of broadly applied sanctions in achieving their intended outcomes? What are the improvements or safeguards that you would suggest to ensure that sanctions are narrowly focused, are based on clear evidence and are subject to proper judicial oversight rather than just subjective political opinion?

[Tim McSorley]

I'd reiterate what I said earlier about how there's a growing body of research and studies that question whether unilateral sanctions are effective. In this case, if we were to look at potential ways to improve this legislation, it's modelled in large part on Canada's Magnitsky law and is targeted specifically to individuals. If we were to look at sanctions, having targeted sanctions in regard to specific individuals, not entire entities, entire states or entire governments, would allow some form of protection, although we're still fairly critical of that.

Beyond that, there's a concern, as you said, that these sanctions can be levied if the Governor in Council is of that opinion. We believe that to improve this, some form of judicial safeguard could be put in place so it would have to be reviewed judicially within a certain amount of time if it's not pre-authorized by a judge. Of course, that also runs into the question that's been raised about the discretion of government and ministers in these types of cases. It raises the question of whether there is a conflict there between a judicial authorization and ministerial discretion to act on these issues.

All those points make it incredibly difficult to find clear ways to amend this legislation so that it would be workable to achieve its goals.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you very much.

That concludes our questions.

Allow me to thank you all for your very informative and rich perspectives on these challenging questions.

Go ahead, Mr. Bergeron.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Mr. Chair, with your permission, I'd like to give notice of the following motion:

Given that, during the 44th Parliament, since November 22, 2021, the Minister of Foreign Affairs has appeared only once before the members of this committee in connection with the study of government estimates, and that she has appeared only four times since the beginning of this Parliament, out of 130 sittings; that since his appointment—

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

I have a point of order.

I'm not disagreeing with this necessarily, but I want to check whether notice for the motion has been given to the committee.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

That's what I am doing as we speak.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

He's giving notice.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

We're not in a business meeting, though, so you're not moving it. I missed the first part.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

No.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

Okay, thank you.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

I will finish reading the notice of motion:

—that since his appointment on July 26, 2023, the Minister of International Development has testified only once before the committee; the members of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development express their deep disappointment that the Ministers ignore the invitations sent by the committee, in particular those concerning the study of their department's credits; and that this be reported to the House.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you very much, Mr. Bergeron.

Ambassador Nölke, Ambassador Fowler, Ms. Saperia, Mr. Rafiq, Ms. Symons, Ms. Teich and Mr. McSorley, thank you very much for your time. We are very grateful indeed.

The meeting stands adjourned.