Evidence of meeting #131 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was report.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Clerk  Mr. Jacques Maziade
Superintendent Denis Beaudoin  Director General, Federal Policing, National Security, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Vasken Khabayan  Acting Executive Director, Sanctions Policy, and Sanctions Outreach, Compliance & Enforcement, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Alexandre (Sacha) Vassiliev

The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 131 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development. Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, and I'm told by the clerk that connectivity tests have been undertaken.

I'd like to remind participants and members of the following: Please wait until I recognize you by name before you speak. All comments should be made through the chair. Members, please raise your hand if you wish to speak, whether participating in person or via Zoom. The clerk and I will manage the speaking order as best we can.

Pursuant to the order of reference of Wednesday, June 5, 2024, the committee is resuming consideration of Bill C-353, the foreign hostage takers accountability act. We will begin the clause-by-clause consideration of the bill.

With us today we have many experts, and we're very grateful to all of them for appearing before us. From the Canada Border Services Agency, we have Mr. Derek Janhevich, director, inadmissibility policy division; Mr. Scott Nesbitt, general counsel, legal services unit; and Mr. Jeff Robertson, manager, inadmissibility policy division.

From the Department of Finance, we have Mr. Jeremy Weil, senior director of financial crimes governance and operations.

From the Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development, we're grateful to have back with us Mr. Vasken Khabayan, acting executive director for sanctions policy and sanctions outreach, compliance and enforcement; Ms. Toby Schwartz, director of consular policy, arbitrary detention and hostage affairs; and Ms. Richelle Smockum, deputy director, emergency management policy and international critical incidents.

From the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, we're grateful to have with us Chief Superintendent Denis Beaudoin, director general of federal policing and the national security division.

Last, but certainly not least, we're also grateful to have with us here for guidance today two legislative clerks, Mr. Jacques Maziade and Madame Michelle Legault.

I'd like to provide members of the committee with a few comments on how the committee will proceed with the clause-by-clause consideration of Bill C-353.

As the name indicates, this is an examination of all the clauses in the order in which they appear in the bill. I will call each clause successively, and each clause is subject to debate and a vote. If there are amendments to the clause in question, I will recognize the member proposing it, who may explain it.

In addition to having to be properly drafted in a legal sense, amendments must also be procedurally admissible. The chair may be called upon to rule amendments inadmissible if they go against the principle of the bill or beyond the scope of the bill, both of which are adopted by the House when it agrees to the bill at second reading, or if they offend the financial prerogatives of the Crown.

Amendments have been given a number in the top right corner to indicate which party submitted them. There is no need for a seconder to move an amendment. Once it is moved, you will need unanimous consent to withdraw it.

During debate on an amendment, members are permitted to move subamendments. Approval from the mover of the amendment is not required. Subamendments must be provided in writing. Only one subamendment may be considered at a time, and that subamendment cannot be amended.

When a subamendment is moved to an amendment, it is voted on first. Then another subamendment may be moved, or the committee may consider the main amendment and vote on it.

Finally, if members have any questions regarding the procedural admissibility of amendments, the legislative clerks are here to assist the committee; however, they are not legal drafters. Should members require assistance with drafting a subamendment, they must contact the legislative counsel.

I thank the members for their attention, and I wish us all a productive clause-by-clause consideration of Bill C-353.

Before we get into it, I would like to advise the members that thanks to the efforts of the clerk, Minister Joly has confirmed that she will be appearing on December 12 for one hour.

Thank you for that.

Now we're going to go through the clause-by-clause consideration. Pursuant to Standing Order 75(1), consideration of clause 1, which is the short title of the bill, and a vote on the preamble are postponed.

(On clause 2)

Shall clause 2 carry?

Rob Oliphant Liberal Don Valley West, ON

No.

The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi

Do we want to do it on division or a recorded division?

Go ahead, Mr. Oliphant.

Rob Oliphant Liberal Don Valley West, ON

I think the committee should be advised that we'll be voting against all the clauses of this bill, so whatever is most expeditious would probably be helpful. We're fine to go with a recorded division and we're fine to go with “on division” in an unrecorded vote, if that's appropriate.

The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi

Go ahead, Mr. Aboultaif.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Ziad Aboultaif Conservative Edmonton Manning, AB

On the other hand, we will be voting for every clause of this bill.

The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi

Go ahead, Mr. Bergeron.

Stéphane Bergeron Bloc Montarville, QC

I am comfortable proceeding with the recorded division.

The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi

Ms. McPherson, are you okay with “on division”?

Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

Yes.

The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi

Okay. For clause 2....

Yes, go ahead, Mr. Oliphant.

Rob Oliphant Liberal Don Valley West, ON

I don't understand. Is it on division in favour of it or on division...?

The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi

I think she wants to do it on division.

An hon. member

Is that in favour or against?

The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi

I'm sorry...?

An hon. member

Is it in favour or against?

The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi

It's in favour.

We'll do it by show of hands, if that's okay with everyone.

Rob Oliphant Liberal Don Valley West, ON

I believe we'll need a recorded division, then.

The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi

We'll have recorded division.

Shall clause 2 carry?

(Clause 2 agreed to: yeas 6; nays 5)

Shall clause 3 carry?

(Clause 3 agreed to: yeas 6; nays 5)

The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi

Shall clause 4 carry?

(Clause 4 agreed to: yeas 6; nays 5)

Now we'll go to clause 5.

Shall clause 5 carry on recorded division?

Go ahead, Mr. Bergeron.

Stéphane Bergeron Bloc Montarville, QC

I must admit I'm a little confused. I see there's an amendment to section 5.1. Shouldn't we study the amendment before studying the section itself?

Hedy Fry Liberal Vancouver Centre, BC

Yes, before the clause carries, we have to do the amendment. It's before we do the clause.

The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi

I've been advised by the legislative clerk that 5.1 is entirely new, a proposed new clause. First we have to do clause 5 and then move to proposed clause 5.1.

Stéphane Bergeron Bloc Montarville, QC

Isn't it true that section 5.1 risks being amended by subsection 5.1(1) and that, consequently, we may have a different opinion of section 5.1?

Legislative Clerk Mr. Jacques Maziade

This is not the case, because section 5.1 is a completely separate section from section 5. There will be some interrelations, but it's a completely different article. The committee will vote on the two amendments to the new article 5.1, because there are two of them.

Basically, it's as if they were articles 6 and 7, but, as article 6 already exists, the new article comes in between articles 5 and 6.