Foreign Affairs Committee on Nov. 2nd, 2022

[Emmanuel Dubourg, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

We'll now go to Monsieur Bergeron. You have six minutes, sir.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon, Your Excellency.

I want to thank you and your associates for being with us today.

I find your remarks thus far very informative for the members of this committee.

I won't conceal from you that every one of us has received many messages from people telling us that we should go to Haiti and many others from people telling us we really shouldn't. If we've learned a lesson from all previous experiences, it's that we landed in Haiti with the impression that we knew what to do but never managed to improve the situation. We can see that clearly today.

One of our present concerns is to ensure that Haitians are involved and that the project, solutions and what's implemented are inspired by Haitians themselves.

The problem we face is that the diaspora in Quebec and Canada encourages us both to support and to oppose a military mission, which puts us in a situation where we don't know who we're dealing with. The governmen has installed a government in Port-au-Prince that doesn't control its territory for the reasons you mentioned. It's a government whose legitimacy is seriously in doubt. In the absence of any other interlocutors, we're forced to consider the request that's submitted to us, while the diaspora in Quebec and Canada tells us to go to Haiti, on the one hand, and not to go, on the other.

Without an interlocutor, how can we ensure that the request the Haitian government has made to us is consistent with what Haitians want?

Your Excellency, you mentioned the bad memories that Haitians have as a result of previous experiences, and I can understand that.

How can we be assured that the request the Haitian government has submitted to us is consistent with, or corresponds to, what Haitians want? Have any surveys or consultations being conducted, considering that the government doesn't control the territory? I imagine that's a problem that can be solved through this intervention request.

You understand the problem we're facing, Your Excellecy. Without an interlocutor, how can we be certain we're including Haitians?

[H.E. Wien-Weibert Arthus]

I entirely agree that it's a difficult issue to resolve and that consensus is hard to reach.

As regards interlocutors, as I said a few years ago, I have to acknowledge that Haiti isn't in an entirely constitutional situation, although we do have a government in place. We have an internationally recognized prime minister who has attended international summits and conferences and submitted a request to the UN Secretary General and to many governments, including that of Canada.

In addition, the situation on the ground speaks somewhat for itself. I believe the Canadian media, which have correspondents in Haiti, have clearly explained the situation to us: it's a hopeless situation for which a solution must be found. Now, I entirely agree that the form that solution should take isn't clear, or at least that the solution doesn't yet have unanimous support. That's why I think that the continuing dialogue to reach a basic consensus among Haitians is important, even though it may not be a broad consensus.

I've heard talk of the Canadian mission that was in Haiti. As I said, I'm glad that Canada sent a mission to Haiti. The representatives of that mission met with various actors from both the government opposition and civil society, people who are absolutely not part of the government.

I'm sure that, within a few weeks, the Canadian mission to Haiti will provide a report that's fairly clear and virtually neutral, as it were.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Your Excellency, I know, because we were told earlier this week, that negotiations on the international force are ongoing under the aegis of Mexico and the United States. We don't really know where that stands.

I don't know if you—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Mr. Bergeron, I'm afraid you're out of time. Could you make it very quick, please?

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Yes.

Your Excellency, if that force were to be organized, how could we ensure that the lessons of the past would be taken into consideration.

What rules of engagement, mandate and timeframe would the Haitian government like to see assigned to that international force, provided, of course, that it's deployed?

[H.E. Wien-Weibert Arthus]

I believe that the lessons are there and that they're clear. There are certain disciplinary and deployment errors that should be avoided.

As I said, one of the significant factors that could lend considerable legitimacy would be to have a force that, regardless of its name or composition, arrives in Haiti and genuinely gets to work and that, in addition into providing security, starts work on construction. Construction is very important for us in Haiti today because we still haven't recovered from the earthquake.

I'm sure that people would see results, that they would see work done, very soon, in two or three weeks. Then they might understand that those who come from elsewhere don't necessarily come to Haiti to humiliate Haitians or for purely imperialistic reasons, but…

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Mr. Ambassador, could I ask that you wrap it up in the next 10 seconds, please?

[H.E. Wien-Weibert Arthus]

…to really help. I think that's important.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you, Mr. Ambassador.

We now go to Ms. McPherson, please. You have six minutes, Ms. McPherson.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank His Excellency for being here with us. This has been a very interesting conversation. My colleagues have asked some very important questions, and you've provided some very important information to us.

I also want to express, as I know others have as well, my condolences about what is happening in Haiti. I hear from His Excellency how this is impacting him, but in fact it affects all people in Haiti and all of the diaspora communities in Canada with ties to Haiti. Obviously this is a horrific time, and all of us in this room are trying to find the best way forward to support Haitians at this time.

I am going to ask about a variety of different areas. I am going to start with the political crisis.

Ambassador, we know that Haiti has not held elections for several years. We know that the prime minister is unelected. You spoke about other countries recognizing the prime minister, but the reality is that he is an unelected leader.

What discussions is the prime minister having with opposition parties and with civil society? Perhaps you could note the people behind the Montana accord. What are the possible avenues for transition to a provisional government and subsequent elections?

[H.E. Wien-Weibert Arthus]

What I can say is that there's no constitutional response to the present situation, which isn't really normal.

This is precisely where the political negotiation issue comes into play. It's up to the political actors, the people who engage in politics in Haiti, including the Montana group and other groups—quite a number of groups have emerged more recently—really to work together and determine how something can be organized.

From where I stand, I unfortunately don't have the answer. I think I'm also waiting for the leaders on the ground to do something of that sort.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Isn't the prime minister playing a role in finding a resolution? Is that not happening at the moment?

[H.E. Wien-Weibert Arthus]

In the past year, the prime minister has been involved in negotiations with the various parties. Incidentally, the government currently in place is a coalition government, the result of an agreement signed on September 11 of last year.

However, no other parties are included in that government. I know that extensive negotiations have taken place directly between the prime minister and the Montana group and that talks are under way between the prime minister and other groups on the ground.

As regards the prime minister personally, I know that he's trying to rally more people around a consensus for Haiti.

Now, what's causing the stalemate? Why are we still unable to reach a solution?

I don't have an answer to that.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you, Your Excellency.

I will turn to human rights now. It probably won't surprise very many people in this room that human rights are, of course, very important to me.

I was just reading a 2021 Harvard Law School International Human Rights Clinic article called “Killing with Impunity”. It talked about the fact that in Haiti over the past several years, human rights organizations have reported serious allegations, including massacres of civilians, corruption, and targeting of political demonstrators and opposition members. Some of these abuses were allegedly perpetrated by the government or the police.

Can you talk about the work your government is doing to combat the corruption? What avenues for justice do these victims of abuse have?

[H.E. Wien-Weibert Arthus]

We're in an extremely difficult situation, as I previously said. Considerable effort has been made to support the police and justice, but we sense that we're losing all that. Canada, for example, has invested a lot of money in an attempt to support the police and ensure justice. We feel we're losing what we gained after many years of work.

I must say for the moment that the justice situation is dire. The courts in Port-au-Prince shut down nearly a year ago because their location was besieged by gangs. The situation is very bad, but not just from a security standpoint: it's also a human rights and justice disaster. It's complicated.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

I hear the frustration in your voice, certainly. I know you have spoken about the need for reconstruction. You've spoken about the need for an economy that works. You've spoken about justice and accountability.

Do you think there is a way through this current crisis if there are not mechanisms in place to provide justice for people in Haiti at this time?

[H.E. Wien-Weibert Arthus]

I don't think we can move forward without securing justice, without people being accountable and without certain individuals being punished. But that's not all. We won't be able to move forward unless we ensure that the next generation won't experience these kinds of moments and that young Haitians, my cousins and brothers, who are between 18 and 30 years of age, can find something to do and not fall prey to gangs.

That's a lot to ask, but it sums up what I've just touched on.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Chair, I think that's my time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Yes, it is. You were over. Thank you, though.

We now go to the next round. Each member will have three minutes for their questions.

We will start with Mr. Epp, who is joining us virtually.

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Thank you, Your Excellency.

Thank you to your counsellors for joining us today and thank you for sharing your experience as well.

My initial questions are informed by one of my staff, who is a member of the Haitian diaspora. She actually still has family in Haiti presently.

She recalls that in the early 1990s, Canada helped to train police officers in 2004 and, as you mentioned, Canada had peacekeepers on the ground in Haiti.

Your government is calling for additional external forces. What is the reception from the Haitian police for external forces? What would you anticipate that reception to be?

[H.E. Wien-Weibert Arthus]

I don't have an answer to that. No surveys or studies have been conducted to determine what the police reaction would be. However, I can imagine what it would be, given that the situation is complicated. Since many police officers have been murdered recently, I suppose the police would welcome international assistance in supporting their actions.

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Thank you.

Given that situation, what would be your advice? What would be the process of having external forces versus internal forces identifying, for the lack of a better term, the “bad actors?” How do external forces determine how to help or who to target for sanctions or other measures domestically in Haiti?

[H.E. Wien-Weibert Arthus]

The main problem is firearms. The gangs have better weapons than the police.

Then there's a problem with training. One of the things no one says is that many Haitians have left the country, including many police officers from our special forces. In some instances, those forces have been trained or funded by Canada. So their departure leaves a void.

One of the things that people very rarely say, but that everybody thinks, is that when a country has a high or increased level of violence, that means the security forces in place are involved to some degree. That's been proven elsewhere, and Haiti is no exception to the rule.

We talk about economic and political interests, and you can understand that the established forces want to protect those interests. That's why international cooperation is important. However, I'm not sure another force can come in and do the work of the police. I'm also not sure that's what the government is requesting.

In any case, the international community's support will be needed, if only to assist the police force. This is both a security problem and a political and economic problem.

Haiti won't be able to cope without the international community's help.