Foreign Affairs Committee on Nov. 2nd, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

I call the meeting to order.

Good evening, and welcome to meeting number 35 of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of June 23, 2022. Members are attending in person in the room, as well as remotely through the Zoom application.

I would like to make a few comments for the benefit of the witnesses and members.

First of all, kindly wait until you have been recognized before you speak. For those participating by video conference, click on the microphone icon to activate your mike. Please mute yourself when you are not speaking. I should also add that the clerk has asked that to the extent possible, we use our earpieces, because we are experiencing some problems hearing everyone.

The interpretation button for those on Zoom is at the bottom of your screen. You have a choice of either “floor”, “English” or “French”. Those in the room can use an earpiece and select the desired channel.

As a reminder, all comments should be addressed through the chair.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motions adopted by the committee on Monday, January 31, 2022, and Wednesday, October 19, 2022, the committee resumes its study of the current situation in Haiti.

It is now my pleasure to welcome our witnesses. From the Embassy of the Republic of Haiti, we have His Excellency Dr. Arthus, the Ambassador of the Republic of Haiti to Canada. Joining the ambassador are Mr. Ossé Aristild, the minister-counsellor at the embassy here, as well as Mr. Nesly Numa, the minister-counsellor, as well.

Mr. Ambassador, you have five minutes for your opening remarks, after which we will open it to the members to ask you questions. Once you only have a minute left in your opening remarks, I will put up a signal that you should be wrapping it up within the allotted time.

Thank you. Please proceed.

[His Excellency Wien-Weibert Arthus, Ambassador of the Republic of Haiti to Canada]

Thank you, Chair.

I was very pleased to accept your invitation to appear before you today to discuss the current dire situation in Haiti.

First of all, I must congratulate you and thank you for the interest you have shown in my country.

As you know, the situation on the ground is challenging. The violence orchestrated by armed gangs has paralyzed the country and plunged millions of Haitians into an acute humanitarian crisis.

The violence began some time ago and peaked with the despicable assassination of President Jovenel Moïse on July 7, 2021. Since then, theft, rape and kidnapping have become features of Haitians' everyday lives.

Haiti has come to a virtual standstill in the past two months. The gang-led blockade of the country's main terminal prevents fuel from being distributed across the country. Students have been unable to start their new school year. More than 2.4 million children have been unable to go back to their schools, which have remained closed, and have been shut in at home since June of this year. Nearly 4.7 million persons, almost half the population, are facing high levels of food insecurity, in the wake of which the cholera epidemic has returned and has already claimed some 50 victims.

In the circumstances, the Haitian government has called on the international community to organize a special force to address this security and humanitarian crisis. It is no secret that Canada is very well positioned to conduct an international mission that could be deployed to Haiti to assist authorities in meeting this immediate security need. We are relieved at the prospect because, as I need not remind you, Canada is a partner that enjoys a prestigious reputation in Haiti and has chaired many international meetings on Haiti this past year. The interest that Canada and Canadians have taken Haiti is undisputed.

Yes, a debate has arisen over the possibility of sending a military force to Haiti. First of all, every Haitian knows in his soul that a foreign force is never welcome in our country. That's how it has been since the country's first constitution. The prime minister himself has long, and publicly, dismissed the idea of requesting international military assistance for Haiti. It must also be acknowledged that previous missions have left many bad memories. I therefore see this as an opportunity, though definitely not one of the happiest, but an opportunity nevertheless, to foster Canada's international solidarity toward Haiti.

However, that solidarity must not be restricted to our security problems alone but should be expanded to include construction and reconstruction projects in our country. This can be an opportunity to help Haiti address certain major challenges at the root of our recurring instability problem.

For example, it would be good if a Canadian military mission could include a contingent of military engineers and construction materials in addition to troops and armoured vehicles. It seems impossible that the Haitian capital has yet to be rebuilt 12 years after the earthquake. Canada has a tremendous engineering capability that can help us in that area.

Another lesson that we must learn from the past is that democracy isn't merely a system of functioning institutions. It also has attributes such as justice, accountability and the fight against corruption. There is another fundamental element, and that is the economy. More than 80% of young Haitians 18 to 30 years of age are unemployed. Their only ways out are emigration, crime or politics.

I therefore call upon Canada to help us put our young people to work. Humanitarian aid has never reconstructed a country, and charity won't help Haitians recover. They need assistance in getting to work and earning a living with dignity. That obviously requires an enormous investment, but also, and especially, a greater commitment to do something lasting to help Haiti.

Lastly, Haitians like me would be happy to hear Canada say that, when it began its mission in Haiti, 60% of women didn't have access to health care but that our engineers cut that number down to 12%. We would also like to hear that unemployment, which mainly affects women and forces young girls into prostitution, was also reduced by a wide margin, that Haiti has a president and a parliament and that Port-au-Prince has been reconnected to the rest of the country.

In conclusion, I will be 49 years old next week. I have never known seven years of stability in Haiti since I entered high school in 1985. Since 1994, there have been two major military interventions and a dozen UN missions, and a third intervention is likely upcoming.

If the international community, and Canada in particular, want to help us and to ensure they don't return to Haiti in five or seven years for a new operation, you must help us address our security problems now and build the infrastructure and economy of our country.

This will enhance Canada's prestige, aid Haiti in its recovery and give hope to other vulnerable peoples who turn to the more developed countries for a better tomorrow.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you very much, Your Excellency.

We will now open it up to questions. The first member is MP Hoback.

You have six minutes, sir.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Thank you, Chair.

First of all, thank you, Your Excellency, for being here and giving us some insight into what's happening on the ground in Haiti right now. It sounds like it's a dire situation.

Can you give me a sense of what type of violence we're facing here? Is it based on gangs, criminals or cartels, or is it politically related? Can you give me a more in-depth sense of exactly what that looks like?

[H.E. Wien-Weibert Arthus]

It's a somewhat complicated situation with resulting ramifications.

There are definitely political ramifications; that's a well-known fact. Studies have been conducted on this problem in Haiti. Politics hasn't always served the people. It's a well-known fact that it's an instrument of power, prestige and corruption.

The people who belong to gangs are poor; they aren't rich. They don't have opportunities to travel to buy their weapons. Consequently, there are also economic ramifications. There are all kinds of criminal activity wherever the gangs are. Sometimes the police seize weapons that come from other countries in the region.

There are various economic and political factors. One of the factors that cause the problem to persist and that haven't been addressed over a long period of time is poverty among young people, who are highly vulnerable.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

What is the impact on the Dominican Republic next door? Are we seeing lots of refugees fleeing Haiti and going to the Dominican Republic? What's the relationship like there?

[H.E. Wien-Weibert Arthus]

Our relations with the Dominican Republic have always been somewhat complicated. Our historical relations have been both close and distant.

What happens in Haiti definitely has an impact on the Dominican Republic. It's also true that certain gangs in Haiti are armed by gangs from the Dominican Republic and that they have ties with each other. The problem is that the Dominican Republic is a far more organized and much stronger state than Haiti. It controls its territory much more effectively. Consequently, it's Haiti that's negatively affected.

I know the Dominican Republic takes in many Haitian migrants as a result of our country's situation, which has a considerable impact on the region.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

What has been the response from the OAS in regard to your requests for help?

[H.E. Wien-Weibert Arthus]

I know that the Organization of American States, the OAS, and the United Nations, the UN, are studying the matter, and the UN has passed a resolution to impose targeted sanctions.

We're still waiting for a response to the prime minister's direct request.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

How would you target sanctions in a country such as Haiti?

[H.E. Wien-Weibert Arthus]

It's both simple and complicated. It's complicated in that the gangs, the people who own the weapons, are young people who are poor and highly vulnerable. It's important to find out who supplies those weapons. Who buys the weapons on the international market, imports them and supplies them to those young people?

We also need to know who benefits from kidnapping, which is a thriving business in Haiti. Every kidnapped person can earn them tens of thousands of dollars in ransom money.

That money goes somewhere, and I think that certain countries, including Canada, are looking into what happens within their own borders, which is very good. In practice, people who commit corruption or other crimes in Haiti then head for cover in the United States, Canada or elsewhere.

It's important that the international community decide, as Canada is doing, to sanction individuals who are in hiding in their countries.

As I said, it's important to sanction the gangs, but they aren't the only ones responsible.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

How would you go about identifying who these persons are? If they're coming into Canada, I want to know about it and I want to make sure they're not bringing their illegal activity with them.

Maybe my question is more like this: What exists right now for infrastructure for a police force or the military to try to bring back the rule of law?

[H.E. Wien-Weibert Arthus]

The situation is very tough for the police. The whole problem stems from the fact that the gangs are better armed than the police, which also have a lot of internal problems that prevent them from addressing the situation. Of course, considerable effort is being made on the ground, although clearly not enough, otherwise we wouldn't be here today.

Efforts must be ongoing. That's why I say that, regardless of the form international cooperation takes, including that of Canada, international contingents will have to work continuously with the Police nationale d'Haïti, the PNH, to ensure that guilty parties are identified, tried and punished.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

You talked a little bit about reconstruction—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Mr. Hoback, I'm afraid the time—

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

I guess my next colleague will ask those questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you, Mr. Hoback.

We now go to Mr. Dubourg. You have six minutes, sir.

[Emmanuel Dubourg, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Thank you, Chair.

I want to welcome His Excellency the Ambassador and the guests accompanying him to the committee today. Greetings to you all.

[The member spoke in Créole]

[French]

Before I go any further, Your Excellency, I would like to offer my sincere condolences through you to the family of Mikaben, the talented young artist who suddenly died. We were all saddened by his death.

Your Excellency, since I have only six minutes, I'd like to ask you some questions and get some brief answers. If my questions make you feel uncomfortable in your capacity as a diplomat, please feel free to ask me to move on to the next question.

Here's my first question.

Doesn't the Haitian government's request constitute, for it, an admission of failure to lead the country?

[H.E. Wien-Weibert Arthus]

Would you please move on to the next question?

[Emmanuel Dubourg, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Thank you.

Here's my second question, Mr. Ambassador.

We know that the armed gangs are partly funded by the economic elite and the politicians. You asked a question in your opening statement. You also know that Canada is prepared to impose sanctions.

With respect to the politicians in question, on whom we want to impose sanctions, do you believe that the Canadian government should consider including politicians from previous governments as well as the present government?

Should it look for corrupt politicians who are funding armed gangs in Haiti?

[H.E. Wien-Weibert Arthus]

The answer to that question is quite obvious: everyone funding the gangs should be sanctioned. As a Haitian, I have mourned the deaths of friends, colleagues and relatives. So this is something personal, if I may say so.

At least this will be an example that will show the next generation that the international community and Canada don't take these situations lightly. The weakness of Haitian justice is a well-known fact. All the studies have been conducted on the subject. However, the international community, and Canada in particular, can take the lead by saying that they don't take this lightly and that those persons can't go unpunished.

Consequently, all politicians involved, both present and past, should be sanctioned.

[Emmanuel Dubourg, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Thank you for your answer.

Your Excellency, Haitians can't seem to agree. The Minister of Foreign Affairs, Mélanie Joly, has made a request to the prime minister in this connection. A lot of agreements are circulating, and some of the people responsible for them are even resigning. However, one gets the sense that all the agreements circulating in Haiti are about replacing the prime minister or the president. As far as we can tell, there's no credible plan for getting out of the crisis. In addition, the purpose of those agreements is to seize power without holding elections.

Consequently, why are the leaders of the Haitian community seeking the assistance of the international community if they can't establish a consensus among themselves?

[H.E. Wien-Weibert Arthus]

I'm quite disappointed to note that we haven't established a political consensus in the country in all this time. I have to acknowledge that. We have a duty to do so, and I believe that Canada is right in pressing Haitians at least to reach a consensus among themselves.

I know the government has made a considerable effort to bring the various groups together so they can reach an agreement. That may take much more time than we thought, but I'm hopeful. I'm not a dreamer, but I hope that Haitians can manage to agree on what they want and on the level of support they want from the international community and Canada.

[Emmanuel Dubourg, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Thank you.

I believe I just have enough time for a final question.

I think you've already stated your position on this, but in the event of military intervention in Haiti by whatever force, what problems would that force face on the ground?

[H.E. Wien-Weibert Arthus]

The first problem would be a difficulty in being accepted. As I said, the issue is being debated, and those debates are almost legitimate, given the history of Haiti and its experience with international forces.

I'm also not a security expert, but I think there'll be a challenge in that regard. The forces will have to identify the gangs and enter the neighbourhoods in order to conduct operations, which could be complicated. That's why it'll be important to cooperate with the police.

My dearest wish is that the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development not meet again in five or seven years to discuss Haiti, its crisis and security. That's why I support the Canadian strategy to come up with a plan.

I'm glad that a mission went to Haiti last week and came back with findings and recommendations. I hope the result will be a credible plan to enable at least a clear majority of Haitians to understand and accept the aid that we need from the international community, particularly that from Canada. We will never get all Haitians on board, and that's normal.