Foreign Affairs Committee on Feb. 7th, 2022

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank all the witnesses for being with us today and for making themselves available to share with us the situation in Haiti that is of concern to all members of the committee. We have made it a priority on the agenda of the committee.

I would also like to say that I am sorry we could not start earlier, as we were struggling with some housekeeping issues. I thank you for your patience.

If I may, Mr. Chair, I would like to return right away to the issue of security in Haiti.

Among all the calamities that have befallen and continue to befall this unfortunate country, there are currently some 95 armed gangs that are, in effect, running the show over much of the territory and isolating the capital from much of the country. This has been recognized by Canada and at the conference hosted by the minister, since a little over $12 million of the $50 million that will be provided to Haiti, as I understand it, will be used to increase the capacity of the Haitian National Police, or HNP, through critical training and increased effectiveness.

My question is quite simple. In my previous life, when I was a member of Parliament in the late 1990s and Haiti was in the process of creating its national police force, Canada sent the Canadian Armed Forces and police officers to stabilize the country and help in the training of the Haitian National Police. I had the opportunity to travel to Haiti at that time to see the work of our police officers and the work of this nascent Haitian National Police. A few decades later, we are where we are.

My question is, what more do we think we can do, more effectively this time, given the situation that exists in Haiti today?

[Michael Grant]

Thank you very much for your question.

I will ask my colleague Ms. Cesaratto to answer it.

Ms. Cesaratto?

[Sylvia Cesaratto, Director General, Central America and the Caribbean, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development]

Okay. Thank you, Mr. Grant.

I thank you very much for your question.

Actually, as you mentioned, Canada is very active in the security sector and has been for a long time. You know more about that than I do, I think. More than 10 years ago, we helped Haiti set up the National Police Academy, or NPA. At the recent conference, as you mentioned, we also announced further grants to the National Police. This increased support is aimed primarily at strengthening the management capacity of the police, including the integration of women into the National Police.

We are also looking at how we can continue to support the National Police Academy, as it is essential to continue training police officers. At the same time, we are also sending police officers from the RCMP or the Sûreté du Québec, a priori because they have the linguistic affinity to pass on their expertise both to the HNP and to the UN mission, which is under BINUH, the United Nations Integrated Office in Haiti.

Canada plays a very important role in strengthening security. As we also tried to do at the January 21 meeting, we are trying to have better coordination with donors to strengthen that security. So we are working with the UN to create a security fund that other countries can contribute to. This could then be used by the UN to implement a national security strategy that has been negotiated with the government of Haiti.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you.

Very briefly, I would like to endorse the words of Daniel Foote, the U.S. envoy to Haiti who resigned; he insisted that U.S. political interventions in Haiti have never worked. I think our saying that the solution must come from Haitians themselves, not from outside, is in that same spirit.

In terms of security—I'll come back to this—should we not, in light of my own experience, conclude that our efforts have been in vain so far? What can we do better to achieve goals this time?

[Michael Grant]

If I may, Mr. Chair, I will answer the question.

Of course, we agree that Haitians themselves must find the solution, and we encourage all parties to find a solution.

With regard to the Haitian National Police, we believe that coordination between the UN mission and our partners is necessary. This is exactly what we are trying to do with the new projects and in working with the UN.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Marty Morantz]

Thank you, Mr. Grant.

We're going to move now to Ms. McPherson.

You have the floor for six minutes.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would also like to take the opportunity to thank our witnesses for joining us today and to apologize for the delay in starting the study.

What is happening in Haiti is, of course, extremely complex, and your expertise and sharing of your perspectives is vital for this committee to understand the challenges facing the Haitian people.

I would like to follow up a little bit on some of the questions that have been asked by my colleagues.

With regard to the Core Group and how it is working, Mr. Bergeron just brought up the previous special envoy to Haiti, Mr. Foote, who said in his letter of resignation that what our Haitian friends really want is the opportunity to chart their own course without international puppeteering and favoured candidates, making it very clear that he felt that the Core Group had, in fact, overstepped.

We've heard from a number of different sources that there has been the impression that there is interference in what is happening in Haiti. Of course, we should all should believe in the idea that the solution for Haitians must come from Haitians and that we must give Haitians the ability to select their own course, select their leadership and government.

I just want to get a little better understanding on how the Core Group works and the response, I guess, to those very clear calls from many different sources that the Core Group is once again involved in trying to pick some sort of leadership on behalf of the Haitian people instead of allowing those democratic processes to go forward.

[Michael Grant]

Thanks very much. I'll respond and then, if possible, maybe Ambassador Carrière can follow.

The Core Group really plays out on the ground and in Haiti amongst the ambassadors and representatives.

First to Mr. Foote's comments, I think his comments were directed towards the Government of the United States for the most part and a bit towards the Core Group. All I'll say is—again it does sound a bit like rhetoric, but it is something that we've long espoused and continued to—that the only way forward is for Haitians themselves.... Canada, the Core Group or anyone else cannot simply impose our views on the Haitian people; they must determine the way forward.

I think in the summer, when the tragic assassination took place, there was obviously a lot of confusion and crises, so when there was an agreement between then Prime Minister Joseph and the person who had been nominated to be Prime Minister, Mr. Henry, as a way forward, the Core Group certainly said that was helpful for stability. We also made it clear at the time and since then that there needs to be a long-term solution, that it needs to involve all parties and that we need to get to elections.

I think the most recent meeting that Minister Joly hosted was an opportunity, because it was much more than just the Core Group. Many in the international community said this quite loudly, and said directly to Prime Minister Henry, that there needed to be an agreement amongst all of the parties, that he needed to reach out to the civil society and the opposition to reach one. So we were pretty clear.

However, maybe, Sébastien, you could come in a little bit about the workings of the Core Group on the ground.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

I'm sorry to interrupt, but I have limited time.

As to the elections going forward, I do just wonder what Canada is doing to ensure.... How are we working with the UN and the OAS? How are we making sure that this is in place, that the election can go forward and that we can have a Haitian-selected democratic government put into power in Haiti?

[Michael Grant]

Whether in the OAS or at the UN, or bilaterally between ourselves and the interim government or the various civil society groups or opposition, we are clear that there needs to be this agreement going forward and that without it there is no real chance of elections taking hold.

There's a real debate and it's an honest debate as to, if there is an agreement, how quickly elections can happen. Sébastien provided his views earlier that doing it super fast is unlikely. The conditions on the ground are not in place. Prime Minister Henry would like to have it in a year; some in civil society think it should be in two years. That's for Haitians to decide.

From the Canadian perspective, we stand ready, once that decision is made, to help establish the mechanics, whether it's through the United Nations or the OAS, to help with the electoral officials in Haiti in standing up elections, whether that's through financial resources or expertise.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Would we consider sending an observer mission to Haiti for that election?

[Michael Grant]

That is something that Canada has done in the past. In the Americas, the OAS has a very strong reputation and experience in doing that, and Canada has supported those missions financially and with personnel, so I think it's something we would look at quite positively.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Mr. Chair, I realize I have about 10 seconds. Can I tack those onto my next round?

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Marty Morantz]

Sure.

Mr. Genuis, you have the floor for five minutes. Please proceed.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to our witnesses.

I really believe that advancing justice and looking at areas such as police reform should be a critical part of our work in international development, because so much flows from the rule of law in terms of people's ability to pursue opportunities for themselves. If security is not taken care of, it's much more difficult for them to do that, but if it is, then much else flows from that in terms of opportunity for investment and other actions.

I want to probe the fact that clearly a substantial portion of our development assistance dollars are related to security and supporting police capacity. We see this with allies and partners as well.

What is the nature of our engagement with policing? Are we talking about providing equipment? Are we talking about training? Is there a need for broader, deeper root-and-branch reform, which we've seen in some countries, where police officers are essentially replaced by new recruits who come in and bring a broader, deeper culture change.

What is required in the kinds of reforms that will really meaningfully strengthen law enforcement in Haiti?

[Michael Grant]

Sylvia, can I pass the floor to you for that one?

[Sylvia Cesaratto]

Yes. Thank you, Michael.

I wonder if I can outline that, as Michael mentioned originally, we have the biggest international assistance programming in the Americas in Haiti. That's about $50 million per year in bilateral assistance. We program across all pillars of our feminist international assistance policy, one aspect of which, of course, is inclusive governance. Under there, we are working to address insecurity, as you mentioned, and working with the PNH.

It's a complex situation, but we are working closely with the management of the police itself and with the UN, which has specialists on the ground that are able to analyze where the gaps are and where the needs are. Canada's assistance is in capacity building, and mostly until recently with the academy: the standing up of the academy, helping to recruit and to train the new recruits.

We're moving some of our programming now into the management structure of the police academy per se, strengthening the capacities of the senior management of the police establishment to implement their own national security plan, but that's in close coordination with the UN and with other partners on the ground.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

If I understood your response correctly, you're talking about programs of providing additional training to existing personnel rather than, as I described, more dramatic police reforms that we've seen in countries such as Georgia and Ukraine.

[Sylvia Cesaratto]

That is correct. We're hoping, however, that through the establishment of the security basket fund through the UN, we could go a bit further on the reforms in conjunction with the UNDP, which is actually setting up this fund.

Again, this has to be in coordination with the host government, the Haitian government, on visa reforms.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Yes. Of course you can't reform a police force without the agreement of the host government, but I would be curious for your opinion of what's required here. Is providing additional training to the existing players sufficient, or is that less effective than broader, deeper police reform?

[Sylvia Cesaratto]

Well, I think it's multi-dimensional. You have to attack it from several perspectives.

One is certainly that there aren't enough police to deal with all of the issues they have to address, so the academy will help to bring in new recruits. We know that other international partners are working with the PNH and the UN to establish vetting units, for instance, within the police itself.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I'm sorry, I want to get in one additional question in the time I have left.

It does strike me that if there are fundamental culture problems in a police force, additional recruits may solve a problem but not the core problem.

Could you just comment quickly on some of the challenges we've seen around international adoption and family reunification coming out of Haiti? I've heard from many people who have connections to those situations. Do you have any comments on the work being done in that area?

If we run out of time, could you respond in writing, please?

[Michael Grant]

Yes, perhaps we will respond in writing.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Marty Morantz]

We've just run out of time.

Madam Clerk, could I ask you to follow up with the witness to get a response in writing for Mr. Genuis?

Ms. Bendayan, you have the floor for five minutes. Please proceed.

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I also thank Mr. Grant very much, and Ambassador Carrière for being with us today. I would also like to recognize my colleague Emmanuel Dubourg, member of Parliament for Bourassa, who is on the committee today and who represents a very strong voice for the Haitian-Canadian community within the federal government.

It is clear that the relationship between Canada and Haiti is extremely important. I am very proud of the support that Canada continues to provide to that country. This support includes, of course, the additional $50 million in development assistance announced just a fortnight ago, but also approximately $90 million contributed annually, making Canada the second-largest donor to Haiti, after the United States.

We all agree that Canada has an important role to play and that it must do more. The assassination of President Moïse shocked the world, including the large Haitian diaspora in Quebec, which numbers about 143,000 people. We also know that today's meeting is taking place on a very special date. In fact, today is the day that President Moïse's mandate would have ended, but it has not, since Ariel Henry is the provisional president and Haiti is in the grip of a major political crisis. About a month ago, provisional president Henry himself had to be rescued from a shootout between his security guards and gang members that took place during an official ceremony.

We all say here that the solution is going to come from the Haitian people, and, of course, it is, but given the current situation, I would like to hear from our witnesses on how Canada could best support the Haitian people. The $50 million in aid is very important, but how can we ensure that this money gets to the ground quickly to have the best possible effect for the Haitian people?