Evidence of meeting #44 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was artsakh.
A video is available from Parliament.
As an Individual
Thank you very much.
How is it now? Is it okay? Can I continue?
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi
If there are challenges flagged by the technical assistants, I will bring them to your attention. Thank you.
Please proceed.
As an Individual
One hundred and twenty thousand people who love their home and whose fundamental attachment to their ancestral land is an essential part of their identity have been trapped in their homeland for 45 days, completely isolated from the world, having neither air nor land connection with the outside world because the only road is closed by a group of Azerbaijanis acting under the direction of the Azerbaijani government.
These inhuman acts have resulted in an effective siege of Artsakh. To further aggravate the situation and cause excessive suffering, Azerbaijan, taking advantage of its control over critical infrastructure coming from Armenia to Artsakh, has deliberately cut all the gas and electricity supply. People have no gas. They are being supplied with electricity for six hours on a rolling blackout schedule with very limited domestic electricity resources. This has negatively affected all spheres of people's everyday lives.
The blockade has caused a sharp shortage of all vitally important supplies from Armenia, which average some 400 tonnes a day. Over 45 days, 18,000 tonnes of vital foods were not imported into Artsakh. Food supplies are running out quickly, without being replenished.
To address the unfolding food crisis, the Government of Artsakh introduced a ration stamp system using state emergency reserves. The entire population, including vulnerable groups—30,000 children, 20,000 elderly and 9,000 disabled persons—are at high risk of malnutrition and starvation. The risk is extremely high for people who are in facilities with special diets—nursing homes, hospitals, psychiatric centres, etc.
The longer the blockade continues with life-saving medicine becoming unavailable, with hospitals unable to provide necessary heat and hot water, the more it contributes to the reduction of essential medical services to below minimum requirements.
There is an acute shortage of all necessary medications. Four hundred and ninety people have been deprived of the opportunity to receive necessary medical treatment due to the suspension of planned surgeries in all medical facilities. Only very few critically ill patients were able to be transported from Artsakh to Armenia with the help of the ICRC.
The humanitarian crisis that has been created has had irreversible consequences, especially for children. Since January 18, all 170 schools and 41 kindergartens in Artsakh have been closed due to heating and electricity supply problems and insufficient food supply, thus depriving almost 30,000 children of the right to an education.
The psychological trauma of the blockade is particularly acute for children whose daily lives have been brutally interrupted. Many children who received periodic examinations and treatments in various medical institutions in Armenia have been deprived of this opportunity. Parents are unable to find baby formula or baby hygiene supplies to organize proper care of their children.
Family members from Artsakh, Armenia and around 20 foreign countries are unable to reunite due to the closure of the road. However, the blockade is not only a humanitarian issue but also a barbaric form of denial, by autocratic Azerbaijan, of the fundamental human rights of the people of Artsakh and a denial of the people's right to self-determination and their right to live freely and in dignity.
As a member of a national human rights institution, I have constantly warned the international community about the crimes committed by Azerbaijan, not only during the 44-day war but also after the war. People including civilians were killed. Hundreds were subjected to attempted murder by Azerbaijani military forces. Agricultural work was intentionally obstructed, and attacks aimed at creating an atmosphere of psychological intimidation and fear were purposefully carried out by the Azerbaijani authorities.
Azerbaijan's actions demonstrate that the autocratic regime of Azerbaijan continues to adhere to a coordinated, systematic and consistent policy aimed at keeping the population of Artsakh in constant terror and fear and creating unbearable living conditions. The goal of this policy is the ethnic cleansing of Artsakh and the complete exclusion of the people from their homeland.
Honourable Chair and distinguished members of the committee, the people of Artsakh have proven with their behaviour that they are loyal to the democratic value system and are ready to overcome any challenge for those values. We just want not to be alone. We expect you to sympathize with our suffering. We expect you to take responsibility for the protection of our rights and put an end to Azerbaijani impunity.
Thank you for your attention.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi
Thank you very much, Mr. Stepanyan.
We now go to questions by the members. The first member is Mr. Hoback.
You have five minutes, sir.
Conservative
Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK
Thank you, Chair.
If what I'm hearing doesn't jerk at your heart strings, I don't know what can. It sounds absolutely horrible.
What was the main occupation of these 120,000 people before the blockade? What type of work were they doing in this area? What was the main industry?
As an Individual
Thank you.
Artsakh has traditionally been an agricultural country. We have nice, arable lands with lots of economic opportunities. Apart from agricultural life, we also reached a level of energy self-sufficiency before the 2020 aggression, when most of it was taken from us by Azerbaijan, Turkey and international terrorists.
We also have mining. The very issue which has been—
Conservative
Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK
Let's boil in on the mining side of it. How big a part of your economy is it?
There are claims that are being made by these eco-blockade folks. I'll call them that for a lack of a better word. How real is that issue with regard to what they're claiming?
As an Individual
Mining has been something of a post-Soviet branch of our economy. It has been developed into a big industry and a big chunk of our state budget incomes. It provides about 30% of our income now, especially when we have difficulties with arable lands, green energy production and other items of the economy. It has been, since day one, implemented with the high standards of our environmental organizations.
Artsakh has always been sure in the absolute groundlessness of statements and accusations from Azerbaijan that there could be any environmental concern.
Additionally, we are also open to any international commission that would be unbiased and objective, and that can join us. We know that Canada also has big industrial activities in mining, so we can join efforts in making sure that what is really happening is delivered to you and that the information is credible, rather than allegations from Azerbaijan.
Conservative
Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK
If we were to bring in a third party to verify the economic and environmental impacts of these mines, do you think that would be recognized by those who are participating in the blockade?
As an Individual
Hopefully, but unfortunately, as of now, Mr. Hoback, Azerbaijan has expanded the demands, as I said in my testimony. They went all in. They expanded it with knowingly inadmissible political demands, which are probably cherished in Azerbaijan, but they would be very dangerous for us. It would be the beginning of the end for Artsakh as a country, as a democracy and as an Armenian presence and civilization there.
Our government has reached out to the international community with the invitation to organize an objective international mission to address any concerns by Azerbaijan or any other stakeholder on this issue that an environmental stakeholder can have.
Conservative
Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK
How do you find the Russian peacekeepers on the ground? Are they effective and efficient? Are they respected?
How do you see that functioning?
As an Individual
I had the opportunity to follow the previous panel. This issue was covered by our colleagues in the first session.
There are several issues and restrictions in place. We're speaking about 2,000 soldiers with an unclear international mandate, without any opportunity or regulation to impose any coercion or force if there's any disturbance. The 2,000 people are called there to protect 154 kilometres of border between Artsakh and Azerbaijan. We know that this is not a significant number. We know that more effective peacekeeping will demand more boots on the ground and a clear international mandate.
This is one of the reasons why we have also been calling for the internationalization of the peacekeeping effort. We want the world to have more of a say on this issue. We want Artsakh's security to be subjected to a more consistent international system of security.
Conservative
Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK
Okay.
Then there was the comment you made that you were allowed to leave, and get through the blockade to leave, but you would never be allowed to return. Can you give me some evidence of what exactly is happening there? Who is making that decision? Is it these environmentalists or is it somebody else? Is it the peacekeepers? Where is that coming from?
As an Individual
Thank you.
I actually quoted Azerbaijan's president from his press conference of I think a couple of weeks ago, where he said, “For whoever does not want to become our citizen, the road is not closed.... They can leave.”
That made it obvious to us that this is not an environmental issue and that the state has complete control of it, which kind of added to the set of other evidence. We know, person by person, that there are people from Azerbaijani security services. There are people who are soldiers who were participants of the 2020 aggression.
This is one of the manifestations of the demands, so the issue we're dealing with here is much more than just the environmental concern. The idea is to complete the de-Armenianization of Artsakh, an effort that has been there since pretty much the formation of Azerbaijan in 1918.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi
Thank you, Mr. Avetisyan.
You're out of time, Mr. Hoback.
We now go to Mr. Oliphant for five minutes.
Liberal
Rob Oliphant Liberal Don Valley West, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I want to take an opportunity in this round first to thank Mr. Bergeron for raising this issue as an important issue to deal with and also to make it very clear that the Liberal caucus members of this committee support doing this study. It's very important for us.
The nature of the study is to understand the humanitarian issues and perhaps crisis—I'm not prejudging anything—that is taking place in Nagorno-Karabakh at the present time and the plight of the people of that region. That is our goal today: to understand the nature of the humanitarian situation, to understand the nature of the blockade and to understand, on the ground, what is going on. That is the nature of what we're trying to do.
We recognize that it is within a long, protracted conflict that has gone on for a few decades and has gone through different periods of war, including most recently two and a half years ago. We recognize that it is an ongoing situation, and Canada supports a comprehensive negotiated political solution to that conflict over that disputed territory between Azerbaijan and Armenia. We want peace. That's our first goal.
We also are a country of the rule of law, and we follow an international rules-based order. As such, when it's clearly stated that Canada supports all UN Security Council resolutions on Nagorno-Karabakh, I very much want to reiterate that Canada respects Azerbaijan's territorial integrity within its internationally recognized borders and its sovereignty. I recognize that some of our witnesses will not agree with that, but Canada's position is that we have accepted and we agree with the UN's resolutions on the situation, and we understand the territorial integrity of Azerbaijan and its sovereignty. As such, Canada does not recognize other entities within those borders as a political entity. It shares that position with every other member state of the United Nations.
At the same time, we want peace. At the same time, we want to promote the non-use of force, territorial integrity and self-determination in resolving the conflict through a negotiated political solution. We want a continuation of dialogue outside this current humanitarian issue that we are studying today. We want all parties to continue to engage in meaningful dialogue and to have a positive constructive engagement over the process. That may happen through the OSCE process. It may happen through a Russian process. We are pleased to see that conversations are taking place between the leaders of Azerbaijan and Armenia, and Armenia and other countries, as a way ahead.
I wanted to get that on the record. Today we are dealing with a crisis that is real. We have been hearing enough evidence. We are trying to dig down more deeply to understand the exact nature of that, the options for it, the causes behind it, what is happening on that road, what supplies are getting through and what supplies are not getting through. Those could be food supplies, medical supplies, transport of ill people back to Armenia, and the electricity and power that may be coming through the corridor or other opportunities for power to get to the people.
With that being said.... I'm taking the bulk of my time to make that statement. I don't usually like doing those statements because this is question time. However, I do want to make sure that—even though they will probably disagree with me—the witnesses have a chance to respond to my statement.
As an Individual
Thank you.
You raised a very important general question—that international law should also be applicable to Artsakh. Despite those Security Council resolutions that were adopted during the war with the sole purpose of stopping that act of aggression against Artsakh by Azerbaijan, they were not respected by Azerbaijan itself. Azerbaijan, in violation of all those resolutions, resumed attacks against Artsakh. We have to be clear on that. Otherwise, there will be no need to reiterate the general vision of the peaceful resolution of this conflict by so many resolutions.
We want Azerbaijan to adhere to the rest of the UN charter. The fundamental thing there is the right to self-determination. People have a right to self-determination. Self-determination is the right that has provided the formation of the treaty and much of the entire political map today. That is a process that is inalienable. It's irresistible, if you wish.
We also want to say that we deserve that right, because we did not fail in our quest for independence. We turned into a much more democratic country, especially if you compare it with the autocracy in Azerbaijan.
As of now, we want Azerbaijan to adhere to the UN charter, the same way they always put forward as the argument in their favour, and end the blockade, which violates any UN article and violates the major conventions to which Azerbaijan is a co-signatory; to respect human rights; to respect international law; and to take these discussions, including political discussions, over the whole set of issues into a political field. Why should kids die while Azerbaijan is feeling just fine and referring to UN resolutions adopted 30 years ago?
No. We want Azerbaijan to behave internationally, which would be respect towards international law, towards the country's commitments to behave in a predictable political manner and towards their own people, who also deserve rights. What we see is autocracy—
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi
Mr. Avetisyan, I'm sorry. We're considerably over time. Thank you for your response.
We now go to Mr. Bergeron.
Mr. Bergeron, you have five minutes, sir.
Bloc
Stéphane Bergeron Bloc Montarville, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I do not intend to comment on Mr. Oliphant's statement, other than to say that the recognition of the territorial integrity of a state does not exclude the possibility that there may be, within its borders, various levels of government. I think it is important to point this out here, since this recognition does not exclude the possibility that there may be various orders of government within the same state, Canada being a very good example of this.
That said, I would like to address Mr. Avetisyan.
According to what we heard from Ms. Papazian on the previous panel, the blockage, strictly speaking, is an act of war in contravention of the ceasefire agreed to between Armenia and Azerbaijan under the auspices of Russia. Nagorno-Karabakh President Haroutiounian went further, saying that what is happening now is an attempt at ethnic cleansing orchestrated by Baku, by Azerbaijan.
Quite simply, Mr. Avetisyan, what allows the president of Nagorno-Karabakh to make such a claim?
As an Individual
Excuse me. I have to admit that I lost the question while I was choosing the language channel. If it's not a problem, could you please repeat the question? I'm sorry.
Bloc
Stéphane Bergeron Bloc Montarville, QC
Mr. Chair, I hope you will take into account that I have to repeat my question.
Ms. Papazian, who was on the previous panel of witnesses, said the blockade was an act of war in contravention of the ceasefire agreed to between Armenia and Azerbaijan under Russian auspices. Nagorno-Karabakh President Haroutiounian goes further, saying it is an attempt at ethnic cleansing by Azerbaijan.
Quite simply, what allows the president of Nagorno-Karabakh to make such a claim?
As an Individual
Thank you. That's a very comprehensive and very important question.
The statements by the Artsakh president and the political and human rights defender, if he had the chance to respond, are based on the consistency of efforts to make the lives of Artsakhis impossible. There is a clear intention, which has been present in the Azerbaijani political system, to de-Armenianize Artsakh. We have seen so many statements, which I will be more than happy to provide to the honourable members of this committee and to anyone you would deem appropriate, about how they need Artsakh without Armenians, and clear rounds of aggression, starting in 1988 when there was still the Soviet Union, and in 1991 and then in 2016, and in 2020 when they went so far as to also involve international terrorists. Those are the manifestations of a clear-cut and consistent policy by Azerbaijani authorities to de-Armenianize Artsakh. They need our home without us in it, and they have been pretty vocal about that.
Unfortunately, that is the political leadership we have on the other side of the negotiations. This blockade is one of the most vivid and recent manifestations of it, and I think that has become clear for the international community and all governments pretty much, which hope there will be civilized dialogue between Artsakh and Azerbaijan. We see that, no, the only intention is to starve us to death or force us to leave.
Bloc
Stéphane Bergeron Bloc Montarville, QC
Mr. Stepanyan, you can of course add your comments to the answer just given by Mr. Avetisyan.
I would like to ask you, however, whether you have been able to return to Nagorno-Karabakh.