Foreign Affairs Committee on Feb. 10th, 2022

[William Browder]

I believe at the moment that they're looking at the threat of sanctions as a deterrent, although, as I said in my opining remarks, I think there should be some small taste of the sanctions, because at the moment Putin doesn't believe that any of us are serious about this. Until he sees that there is some seriousness, his calculation is that this will be like every other thing he's done, for which there have been sanctions but none that affect him personally.

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

I will address my next question to the Ukrainian Canadian Congress. Good afternoon.

I'm looking at a photo published on February 2. It is a photo of Ukrainian MPs holding up flags of different countries in their parliament. I see the Canadian flag front and centre.

Can you give us a bit of background regarding this photo? I understand it represents the countries that have helped Ukraine the most.

[Ihor Michalchyshyn]

I've seen the photo published as well. I believe there was a moment in the Ukrainian parliament when some—I don't know exactly which—deputies organized that photo op. I believe they were making reference to the Operation Unifier assistance that had been announced, as well as to other aid from other countries represented there.

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

My understanding from our defence minister, Minister Anand, is that Canada currently has 260 troops on the ground in Ukraine conducting training missions under Unifier, which you just referred to.

Is there any country that has more troops on the ground at the moment?

[Ihor Michalchyshyn]

I don't have an operational analysis of the American or British operations, but I know that Canada has traditionally been one of the largest contingents there. Our main concern is that, as good as Operation Unifier is, for their own safety, those troops will be evacuated as soon as an invasion begins, and I think that's the proper thing to do.

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

I believe the U.K. has just over 100 troops and the United States about 150. Do those numbers sound correct to you?

[Ihor Michalchyshyn]

I don't have any numbers on the other country missions, so I'm sure they're correct.

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

I'll turn to Mr. Kolga. I found it very interesting what you had to say about cognitive warfare and the amount of disinformation coming out of Russia, I wonder if you could enlighten us and Canadians as to how Russian disinformation is entering Canada at the moment, through which platforms or mechanisms.

[Marcus Kolga]

There are several different ways that Russian disinformation enters into Canada's information space. One of the primary methods is through RT, which is a Russian state-owned news channel that's been broadcasting since 2005. It broadcasts what you could call news, but the vast majority of it is in fact Russian state propaganda aimed at advancing its interests. There are other state media channels that are pushing this same sort of information into Canada.

There's also a system of proxy websites, fake news websites, websites that promote conspiracy theories and such, many of which have been identified in reports that I've produced at DisinfoWatch. The State Department has also produced them. One of them is the platform called Global Research, which was identified by the State Department last year.

All of these platforms have been active over the past two years, promoting COVID conspiracy theories, vaccine hesitancy and such, and they have sometimes been picked up by mainstream media and extremist media in their efforts to push them to Canadians. It's primarily Russian state media that promotes these narratives.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Mr. Kolga, thank you very much. We'll have to leave it there in the interest of time.

Thank you very much, Ms. Bendayan.

Mr. Bergeron, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank the witnesses for being with us today.

I will follow on from Ms. Bendayan's question.

Mr. Kolga, I must say that I agree that Russia is conducting operations to spread disinformation around the world, especially in the West. I believe this to be undeniable. Germany has actually banned the channel you mentioned a few moments ago.

But I must admit I was surprised, to say the least, to hear you allege that Russia is behind the occupation of downtown Ottawa. The last time I heard such a dramatic statement was when the committee was pranked by someone pretending to be Leonid Volkov, Alexei Navalny's chief of staff and campaign manager. Mr. Volkov made a list of people on whom we should impose sanctions under the Magnitsky Law. Mr. Volkov's impersonator said that the Kremlin was funding the separatist movement in Quebec. So, I was just as surprised when I heard you say that Russia is behind the occupation of downtown Ottawa.

On what do you base that statement? It's unexpected, to say the least.

[Marcus Kolga]

If you'll allow me to clarify, I don't believe Russian state media is behind the protests, but I do believe the Russian state media, and possibly other foreign media, are exploiting the situation. What Russian state media and the Kremlin try to do is identify very divisive issues and exploit them in order to further divide western societies.

We've observed over the past week that RT—Russia Today—has been reporting positively on the protests, and we've seen other proxy platforms doing the exact same, which legitimizes them and could perhaps help fuel them along. However, it would be incorrect to say that Russian state media is behind the protests. They just exploit them.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you for that clarification. I believe it's an important one.

I would now like to ask Mr. Michalchyshyn, the representative of the Ukrainian Canadian Congress, a question.

Mr. Michalchyshyn, in your opening remarks, you said that you believe that Russia will invade Ukraine again at any time. However, Ukraine's foreign affairs minister, Mr. Kuleba, asked the international community not to engage in any alarmist rhetoric regarding an imminent invasion, adding that this would be detrimental to Ukraine's interests and play right into Russia's hands. Ukraine's president also said that there was no reason to believe that preparations for a large scale attack are under way.

The Ukrainian leadership itself is asking us to tone down the rhetoric, so why are we entertaining the idea? It seems to be based on some factual information, but it also seems to come out of nowhere, given that Russian troops have been massed at the Ukrainian border for several months now.

Why give credence to the theory of a new, imminent invasion of Ukraine by Russia?

[Ihor Michalchyshyn]

I base that assessment on the public intelligence data the American government is making known in terms of the total number, which I believe might even be 140,000 Russian troops around Ukraine in Belarus, Russia and occupied Crimea.

We have to understand that the best indicator of future behaviour is past behaviour. In the case of Vladimir Putin, he has said on many occasions that he had no plans to invade Ukraine; he had no plans to invade Crimea; he had no plans to invade Georgia. It would be foolish for us in Canada, in the west and among our NATO allies to assume Putin has 140,000 troops roaming around the borders of Ukraine with no mal-intent.

I would respectfully say that we should be concerned about the numbers. The rhetoric of the Ukrainian government, I think, is meant to calm the fears and economic panic of its citizens.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Of course.

That said, if Ukraine is asking its allies to tone down the rhetoric, why shouldn't Canada do so?

[Ihor Michalchyshyn]

I don't know what calmer language can be used to describe a potential invasion, other than to keep repeating the facts. The Ukrainian government is facing economic pressures, and there are significant preparations in Ukraine in terms of civilian and defence potential scenarios, as well as with the UN on humanitarian and refugee scenarios.

It is only responsible to forecast the possible invasion scenarios and prepare for them. It would be irresponsible to pretend that the threat is minimized. We could be caught off guard, as we have many other times, by Putin.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Thank you so much. We'll have to leave it there.

Thank you very much, Mr. Bergeron.

The final six-minute allocation goes to Ms. McPherson. Please go ahead.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

I would like to thank all of the witnesses who have joined us today. I've learned a great deal. I've learned from all of you before today. Thank you for sharing your expertise with us all. It's very important and a very pressing issue.

I wanted to follow up on some of the questions my colleague from the Bloc has asked about the disinformation the Russian media is using to increase the conflict that's happening in Ottawa and in other areas around Canada with the convoys right now.

I would like to ask this question of Mr. Kolga. This week we saw an MPP from the Ontario legislature, formerly a Conservative, in an interview with Russia Today about the occupation of Ottawa, spreading some very disturbing messages. He said that Russian news provides a platform for objective journalism, whereas Canadian mainstream media creates fabrications. This is an Ontario MPP who is saying that Russian news is objective and Canadian mainstream media is a fabrication.

As parliamentarians, what do we do about this spread of propaganda and misinformation?

[Marcus Kolga]

I was also surprised to see that this Ontario MPP appeared on Russia Today. I think it's the first instance of an elected Canadian official appearing on Russian state media.

The fact that the same MPP tweeted that Russian state media was more trustworthy than Canadian media was also quite surprising and disappointing. First of all, tweeting that sort of a comment exposes his followers directly to Russian cognitive warfare. It sends them down a rabbit hole where facts no longer matter. I think those followers are probably having challenges with some of that already, and that tweet doesn't help in that regard.

I've been warning about this problem, quite frankly, since before 2014. We saw the types of narratives we're seeing right now connected with the protests emerging two years ago, when the pandemic began. We were warned by the European External Action Service that Russia would be exploiting COVID and would be using it to divide and polarize us. We've been seeing this all along, and now we're seeing the results of that to a certain degree.

Much of that is organic. There are genuine frustrations in society and these are the types of frustrations and emotions that the Russian government exploits in order to further divide us. That is the primary objective of Russian state media. It is to divide, polarize and undermine democracy.

We can put a stop to this. This means, as I mentioned earlier, setting up a task force to address this and placing sanctions on Russian state media, so that they're not allowed to use our airwaves to broadcast their information. Right now RT and Russian-language state media is available on Canadian cable systems, as is Chinese state media.

We should be looking at all of these, cutting them off and limiting their opportunity to affect Canadian political debate.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

I have so many questions for all three of you, but I want to ask some questions of the Ukrainian Canadian Congress.

First of all, I want to just express that I'm so sorry about what happened with the bakery in Canada. I'm so sorry for all the examples we've seen of hate shown towards the Ukrainian community. As somebody who lives in Edmonton, which has a very large Ukrainian population, I will always stand with the Ukrainian Canadian population. You have my deep sympathy for what you and people in Ukraine are going through.

You're talking very much about doing actions right now, before Russia has further invaded Ukraine. You've given us some rationale for why that is the case.

What is the risk there, though? What is the risk of undermining our de-escalation and our diplomacy efforts if we are seen to be ramping up and arming Ukraine? Would you mind sharing a little information on that?

[Ihor Michalchyshyn]

Thank you for your sentiments. I know you had a chance to speak with Mr. Wrzesnewskyj, and I know that's very much appreciated.

We're seeing a situation where Putin is engaging in bad-faith diplomacy. He's making outrageous demands about what he wants. He wants to rewrite the borders of Europe to his liking. This is not the kind of person with whom you can engage in real negotiations. The negotiations he wants, frankly, would involve Ukrainian sovereignty and independence being negated. It's on his path back to the U.S.S.R. road map.

I don't want to make light of any Canadian military contributions, but I think the U.S. and the U.K. have the most significant militaries in NATO, along with France and Germany. Certainly a Canadian contribution is meaningful, but it needs to be put in perspective. For two weeks now, those other powers have been sending defensive missiles and things. We're very much urging Canada to join our allies in this effort.

I don't think Canadian decisions would put us at more significant risk than we are already.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Again, you're looking for those sanctions to be implemented now, not later. You're looking to not wait until further invasion by Russia, but to have that happen now.

[Ihor Michalchyshyn]

As Mr. Browder said, Putin doesn't take these threats of sanctions very seriously. Giving him a show of what this impact would be is significant and different.

We've seen, frankly, that he laughs at the sanctions that are placed on him and his officials in other situations. They haven't made a significant impact in the past.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Thank you, Ms. McPherson.

Members, we will now go into our second round of questions, starting with two rounds of five minutes each. Please keep in mind that we will likely not get through the entire second round, as we have a second panel that is waiting to provide testimony.

We'll start with Mr. Chong, please.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

A point of order, Mr. Chair.