Foreign Affairs Committee on March 30th, 2023

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

I think it gives more breadth. What he brought up is the idea that there are people who have been detained, or there are people of whom we don't actually know whether they've been detained, but we would also want them to have protection under some of this legislation.

Ms. Leung, could you provide your thoughts?

[Katherine Leung]

Yes. Both amendments would be agreeable to me.

I don't see why there cannot be a human rights strategy from the government. We have seen a lot of different statements of concern and mandate letters, etc., from the government, without a solid human rights strategy. I think that would be helpful, especially for NGOs like Hong Kong Watch that are advocating for human rights.

As for the amendment for the definition of “prisoner of conscience”, I believe that would be helpful. It would definitely add more clarity to how the bill is to be applied.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you very much.

I have one last question for you, Ms. Leung.

I just want to get a little bit more information from you with regard to the use of SEMA versus the Magnitsky sanctions. Can you tell me what the difference is, in your opinion, in terms of outcome? I don't mean in terms of the application, but in terms of the outcome.

[Katherine Leung]

In terms of outcome, it is difficult to tell currently because we don't really have enough cases to compare them, in my opinion. We have seen a lot of sanctions under SEMA, but really not that many under the Magnitsky act. I think it's difficult to tell at this moment.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you very much.

That's all of my questions, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you, Ms. McPherson.

We now go to the second round of questioning. For this round, each member will be provided two minutes with the exception of the Bloc and the NDP members, who will get one minute each.

We first go to Mr. Genuis.

You have two minutes, sir.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

I think we've heard good testimony from witnesses that will inform us on potential amendments, especially around the section on how to get the balance right on the prisoners of conscience issue.

On the one hand, I think there is a need to have some external pressure on the government and generally there's a benefit to more exposure to these cases, but there may be exceptions and we should be cognizant of those exceptions as well.

In the limited time I have left, I did want to ask Mr. Therchin if he could share whether he thinks the Tibetan community is impacted by foreign interference here, by CGTN or through other mechanisms. Does the repression extend to the Tibetan diaspora?

[Sherap Therchin]

Thank you.

The PRC repression of Tibetans certainly extends to Tibetans outside of Tibet, to Tibetans in India, Nepal, Canada, the U.S. and elsewhere. We have seen Tibetans.... One of the ways Tibetans in exile are targeted is whether or not they still have families in Tibet. That seems to make a difference in preventing them from participating in any political activities—something as simple as participating in our annual Tibetan Uprising Day, which happens to be on March 10. You would see Tibetans, from all walks of life and of different ages, taking this day, once a year, very seriously, in order to remember the massacre of thousands of Tibetans who were killed in 1959. However, there's a fear prevalent among many Tibetans, especially those who have families in Tibet, so you will not see them participating in events like this.

There are Tibetans, especially human rights defenders, who have become victims. As Freedom House reported in September last year, “Tibetans in exile and members of the Tibetan diaspora have faced relentless phishing and hacking attacks, as well as intimidation and threats online”.

On a larger scale—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you, Mr. Therchin.

We'll go to the next member.

Madam Bendayan, you have two minutes.

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First of all, even though Professor Turp had to leave the meeting early, I still wanted to emphasize the importance of his testimony. It is obviously an honour to have another professor from the Université de Montréal, which is in my constituency, appear before the committee.

I was wondering if Professor Turp could provide the committee with more information in writing about other terms that already exist in Canadian legislation or elsewhere that we could use. We are looking for terms that already have a legal definition.

As we have witnesses with us today, I will ask them a few questions.

Mr. Therchin, perhaps I will take the rest of my time to ask you to elaborate a little on your own personal experience with Tibetan prisoners.

Do you feel having a list may be prejudicial? For example, for those individuals who don't make it onto the list, what message would we be sending them?

[Sherap Therchin]

That's, I believe, a difficult choice, but it's a case that's quite common in Tibet. The list of people who are detained is not public. The number I mentioned earlier—2,000—is, I would say, a very small fraction of the overall number. I would guess there are thousands more Tibetans who are detained, yet we do not know their identities or the rationale behind their arrests.

Whether we should make the list public or not.... I would recommend that the list become public, so we at least know stories. The problem, as I mentioned earlier, is that we do not know enough about the stories coming out of Tibet.

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

Is there any risk to the prisoners who would be listed? Do you have any fear or concern they could face worse conditions, as a result of being on the list?

[Sherap Therchin]

There's certainly a risk. However, as indicated in the testimony from Jigme Gyatso, who passed away last year, they are taking this position because they hope people will know about it.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you.

We'll move to Madam Normandin.

You have a minute.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I wanted to put a similar question to both witnesses, so I will put it to Ms. Leung.

Can the use of a list be detrimental to some prisoners? Should the names of those who have expressed or implied that they don't want their names to be published not be published?

[Katherine Leung]

Thank you for the question.

I believe it would be good for the government to consult with the families of the detained before publishing the list. We have heard from some Hong Kongers that they would rather not have their names be public. Family members, especially, who may be living in Canada would also say the same thing, because the treatment of political prisoners in Hong Kong is very bad, to say it bluntly.

However, that should not deter the government from publishing a list in general. I believe it would be good for the government to put pressure on the Chinese government when they are detaining political prisoners. It would be important that we publish that list to put pressure on them to do so.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you very much.

That now means we will move to the next panel. Before we do so—

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Do I not get my last minute?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

I apologize, Mr. McPherson. You're absolutely right. Yes, you get a minute.

You have my apologies.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

It's not very much time, but I would certainly appreciate still getting it. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you again to our witnesses. I think because my colleague from the Bloc asked that question of our colleague online, I would ask a very similar question.

Do you see a way we could provide a list that would be both public and private, based on the circumstances, so that there would be some protection for those who do not want to make their name public—a way of saying who and how many, but without revealing identities? Would that be a solution you could see, from your perspective?

[Sherap Therchin]

Certainly, yes. The list we have is already public, but for those people who are detained and who do not want to be identified, sure. However, our list is already public.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

When we look at legislation, it's important to recognize that this legislation will apply to the entire globe. In some circumstances, of course, it would probably be something that those who are detained would not want made public.

[Sherap Therchin]

I agree. Yes.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you very much.

With that, Mr. Chair—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you very much for that.

At this point, I want to thank Mr. Therchin and Ms. Leung for their invaluable testimony and perspectives. We will certainly make very good use of all the things you brought to our attention. Thank you for being here with us.

We will move to the second panel now. We will suspend for a couple of minutes—no more—and then resume.

For all those members who are online, you don't have to do anything. We're just going to check in with the next set of witnesses.

Thank you.