Foreign Affairs Committee on June 13th, 2023

[Marcel Lebleu]

Yes, but we have three ministers and, obviously, some other components are.... We incorporated the development pillar and the political pillar. The development pillar, for example, is going to be—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

I'll give you another 10 seconds at best.

You will have the opportunity to answer more questions as we move forward.

Next we go to Mr. Epp.

You have four minutes.

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the officials.

I'm going to pick up on a question because of the response to a question by my colleague Ms. McPherson. Can you confirm that, if—and when, hopefully—Wagner is designated as a terrorist group, any co-operation or relationship with Canadian companies will be automatically shut down?

[Heidi Hulan]

Our existing sanctions impose a prohibition on dealings with Wagner already. It is already impermissible for a Canadian company, either here inside the territory of Canada or internationally, to deal with Wagner under our existing sanctions.

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Is the Wagner group listed as a legal entity within Russia and the Russian legal framework, or is it just a smattering...scattering—that's probably the wrong terminology—of companies controlled by Prigozhin?

[Heidi Hulan]

I'll turn to my colleague from the legal department on that, but I'll say Wagner is Prigozhin's military entity. It's his military company. He has numerous other companies named different things for different purposes. Wagner refers specifically to this military operation.

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

A private army is illegal under Russian law, is it not?

[Heidi Hulan]

It is, and I am not aware of any incorporation as a private military company in Russia, because it is illegal to have a private military corporation in Russia.

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Okay.

A number of us this morning were on a call with Latvia, and the representatives there, the ambassadors, identified that they too have listed the Wagner Group as a terrorist entity. That can be added to France, the U.K. and Lithuania.

How are those countries different from Canada in their ability to relatively swiftly list Wagner as a terrorist entity?

[Heidi Hulan]

Mr. Chair, this is an issue that I would like us to come back to the committee on in writing.

I am not aware of formal designations as terrorist entities. I am aware that the French Parliament has passed a non-binding resolution calling on the European Union to formally label Wagner as a terror group, but the EU has not taken that step.

Mr. Chair, I will be very candid and say that I would like to go and look at the specifics and respond to the specific question in writing.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you for that explanation, Ms. Hulan.

I would just like to add that, yes, during the course of our meeting today, we were informed by our Latvian friends that they are recommending to the EU that it be listed, and that, to your point, it was not a binding parliamentary resolution.

Mr. Epp.

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

The legal frameworks for designating Wagner as a terror group do exist here in Canada. Are there any errors, omissions or holes in that framework that you would find more useful in more speedily responding to, quite frankly, the pressure to have it listed?

This afternoon we'll be debating Bill S-8 at third reading. This committee studied some updated legislation that links admissibility and the sanctions regime. Is there something missing in our terrorist designation legal frameworks that would allow for speedier responses?

[Heidi Hulan]

Mr. Chair, I believe the Government of Canada has all of the legal tools it requires to list individuals and entities under the terror designation.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you very much.

For the next slot, we go to MP Zuberi.

You have four minutes.

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here today.

We've been speaking about terror entities and listings and how groups get onto a terror list. You said that in Canada we have the Criminal Code. I believe, if I noted it correctly, that subsection 83.05(1) is the mechanism, the piece of legislation we use to list terror organizations. That is housed under public safety. Is that correct?

[Heidi Hulan]

That is correct. That is the—

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

In the European Union, for a member state to have a group listed as a terror organization, it's done at the instance of the European Union. Is that correct?

[Heidi Hulan]

That is my understanding.

I'd like our legal colleagues to add to that.

[Rebecca Netley]

I'm sorry. At this point, I'm not able to add to that, but that can form part of the response that we provide to the questions that were requested earlier.

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

That's helpful.

From my understanding, for a state like Latvia or another member state of the EU to actually have an organization listed as a terror organization, it's done at the instance of the European Union, at which point the member states then implement the application of a group and the ramifications of its being a terror entity within their jurisdictions.

[Heidi Hulan]

Mr. Chair, that is my understanding. All sanctions within states in the European Union are done through the European Union and are then implemented by the members of the European Union.

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

We spoke a bit about America, what it has done and how it has listed Wagner as a transnational criminal organization. It is, in my understanding, similar to what America does for Mexican cartels. It's an in-between space between what we have in the Criminal Code subsection 83.05(1) and sanctions, let's say.

My colleague, Mr. Epp, asked if there are other devices you can suggest that might not be on the books right now. While our legislation is robust, does meet the moment and takes care of organizations if they should be taken care of, do you have any suggestions around what we can do in addition to what we have right now?

[Heidi Hulan]

Mr. Chair, I won't comment for the government on what additional measures it may wish to pursue in this domain. From the perspective of the civil service, we have all the tools at our disposal that are required in order to list individuals and entities when needed.

I would add that the Americans have a tool in their tool box that we don't have in our tool box, namely, presidential orders. In Canada, we pursue such listings through existing legislation and listings under existing legislation. Presidential orders are not a tool available in Canada.

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

In the 30 seconds that are left, can you outline a bit more what's happening in Syria, Libya, Mozambique, the Central African Republic and Mali with Wagner and what they are doing with human rights abuses?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Answer very briefly, please. You have less than 15 seconds.