Foreign Affairs Committee on Oct. 30th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 79 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the Standing Orders, and therefore members are attending in person in the room as well as remotely by using the Zoom application.

I'd like to make a few comments for the benefit of members and witnesses.

Before speaking, please do wait until I recognize you by name. You may speak in the official language of your choice. Interpretation services are available. Although this room is equipped with a powerful audio system, feedback events can occur. These can be extremely harmful to the interpreters and can cause serious injuries. The most common cause, I will remind members, for sound feedback is the earpiece being placed too close to a microphone.

With regard to a speaking list, the committee clerk and I will do our best to maintain a consolidated order of speaking for all members, whether they are participating virtually or in person. In accordance with the committee's routine motion concerning connection tests for witnesses, I am informing committee members that all witnesses appearing virtually have completed the required connection tests in advance of our meeting.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motions adopted by the committee on Wednesday, September 21, 2022, and Wednesday, January 18, 2023, the committee is resuming its study of security at the borders between Azerbaijan and Armenia.

I'd like to now welcome our witnesses.

We are very privileged and happy to have with us, from the Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development, our first ambassador to Armenia, His Excellency Andrew Turner, by video conference.

In addition, in the room, we're grateful to have Robert Sinclair, senior Arctic official and director general, Arctic, Eurasian, and European Affairs.

Welcome, Mr. Ambassador. It's a great honour to have you with us here today.

For your opening remarks, you have five minutes.

The floor is yours before we turn to questions from members.

Thank you.

[Andrew Turner, Ambassador of Canada to the Republic of Armenia, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It is a profound honour to speak to you as Canada's first resident ambassador to the Republic of Armenia. I'm grateful to the committee for the flexibility in allowing me to appear virtually, given that I only recently arrived in Yerevan, and there is much work to be done on the ground at such an important time.

Having begun my public service career as a parliamentary page, I commend Parliament for the opportunity this program offers to young Canadians.

Global Affairs Canada is closely monitoring the situation in Nagorno-Karabakh and remains deeply concerned by the rapid deterioration of the humanitarian conditions arising from the events of the past year, including the 10-month blockade, Azerbaijan's September 19 military operation and the mass forced displacement of Nagorno-Karabakh's population.

It was on September 19, 2023, that Azerbaijan launched a military operation against the separatist army in the Nagorno-Karabakh region. On September 20, Nagorno-Karabakh's de facto authorities announced their acceptance of a ceasefire proposal put forward by Russian peacekeepers and based on Azerbaijan's maximalist goals.

Following the military operation, there was a mass exodus into Armenia of ethnic Armenians who, after 30 years of conflict and the blockade of the past 10 months, feared remaining in Nagorno-Karabakh. According to UNHCR'S latest emergency update, 100,632 people have arrived in Armenia, which is nearly all of the estimated 120,000 ethnic Armenians of Nagorno-Karabakh. We commend the Government of Armenia for its effective response to this surge of refugees, over 80% of whom have now been temporarily placed within host communities across the country.

UN agencies have launched an appeal for $97 million to help 231,000 people, including refugees and the host communities that support them. Initial actions focused on the refugees' most urgent needs, including shelter, but the emphasis is now on longer-term needs.

In support of these efforts, Canada has joined the international community in responding to the Government of Armenia's call for assistance. Canada announced a combined $3.9 million in humanitarian assistance to support refugees from Nagorno-Karabakh through the ICRC, UNHCR, and other organizations.

On October 26, Prime Minister Pashinyan announced his hopes that a negotiated peace agreement and the establishment of relations with Azerbaijan could be reached within months. Earlier today, he reiterated to the National Assembly that peace and normalization with Azerbaijan and normalized relations with Turkey are his objectives.

Canada supports these goals. Canada has consistently called for a permanent cessation of hostilities and calls on all parties to meaningfully engage in dialogue to reach a comprehensive negotiated peace treaty. Canada promotes the principles of the non-use of force, territorial integrity of both countries and self-determination. A peace agreement must also now guarantee the right of the displaced population to return to Nagorno-Karabakh and guarantee respect for its property and human rights.

In an effort to help reach a peace agreement, various mediation initiatives have been undertaken in recent years. However, after the second Karabakh war in 2020, the efforts of the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe's Minsk Group came to an end.

Since then, several unofficial processes were launched to support peace talks between Armenia and Azerbaijan, including those led by Russia, the European Union and the United States. Most recently, on October 5, a meeting was held in Grenada between Armenia, the European Council, France and Germany. On October 23, the foreign ministers of Iran, Russia, Armenia, Azerbaijan and Turkey met in Tehran, within the 3+3 format, to discuss developments in the South Caucasus.

With the official opening by Minister Joly of the Canadian embassy in Yerevan on October 25, Canada is now better placed to engage with Armenia's government and communities and to meaningfully contribute to international efforts to support democracy, peace and stability in the region.

During her visit, Minister Joly also reiterated Canada's support to Armenia in response to this crisis; announced additional humanitarian assistance; visited the EU observer mission; met with the Armenian government, including Prime Minister Pashinyan; met with civil society; and met directly with people who were forced to flee Nagorno-Karabakh to hear their stories.

The minister was accompanied by members of opposition parties, further highlighting the broad base of support for Armenia at such a difficult time. Canada's ongoing support and the decision to open an embassy in Yerevan have been warmly welcomed by all our Armenia interlocutors and our like-minded partners.

Continuing to monitor developments with regard to Nagorno-Karabakh, Armenia-Azerbaijan relations and the broader regional situation will be an important focus for the embassy.

I and my team remain at the committee's disposal, and I will do my best to answer any questions you may have.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you very much, Mr. Ambassador.

We now turn to the members for their questions. The first member is MP Aboultaif for six minutes.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

Good morning, Your Excellency, and thanks for your presentation.

I think you gave us a very clear picture of what happened and the latest development there, where there were over 100,000 Armenian people who went back to Armenia for protection, more or less. Also, 80% were housed by host communities, but where are the other 20%? Are they in proper camps? What's the situation for these 20%, almost 20,000 people?

[Andrew Turner]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The vast majority of people have been accommodated in housing, taken in by family and friends. The government is also engaged in efforts to find temporary accommodation, but none of this requires the use of tents or anything of that nature. Everyone is being accommodated in more permanent structures.

In some cases, these are limited—places with small rooms—but at least some shelter is being provided to keep people out of the elements as we move closer into winter weather.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

You mentioned the short-term and the long-term solutions to this situation. Recalling history, it could take years for this thing to settle. How do you envision the future as far as returning these people back to their homes is concerned? Who is going to guarantee these people safety and security if, at one point, they can return to their homes?

[Andrew Turner]

Mr. Chair, I'd say that there are two elements to this. First of all, Canada and the rest of the international community have been very clear that the right of the people to return to Nagorno-Karabakh must be respected and that they must have a free and unconstrained choice to return either permanently or to return if they wish to collect more of their property.

The Government of Armenia has indicated that it is also making every effort to accommodate all of the population who wish to remain in Armenia and is requesting support from the international community as it develops plans to take in what is a very significant number of people for a country with a small population base.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

Iran and Turkey are major players in the region, as well as, of course, Russia, and our relationship with Russia is not the best. Who is basically on the opposite side, if we put Iran, Turkey and Russia and their meetings and their vision toward how this is going to develop or how it's going to end? On the opposite side, which is our western world, how clear is our position, and how can we force our way through to make sure that the outcome that we all look for, which is the return of these people back to their homes, is going to happen? Who are we going to be negotiating with?

[Andrew Turner]

Mr. Chair, the solution to the issues between Armenia and Azerbaijan, including the fate of the displaced population, is the conclusion of the peace agreement between the two countries. This has always been at the core of the matter. It has always been Canada's policy to support these efforts.

The traditional efforts of the OSCE to serve as mediator have broken down in the wake of the Russian invasion of Ukraine and Azerbaijan's loss of confidence in the OSCE. Canada has been very active in supporting other efforts that have been launched, through both the European Union and the United States, to encourage discussion. We have also seen efforts to take part, at times, by another neighbour—Georgia.

Canada is committed to supporting whatever forum or venue would be most effective in bringing about a permanent peace agreement.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

Ambassador, the Russians were there. Their propaganda said they secured the safety of these people to exit the region towards Armenia for their own safety. As we know, that's not the true story.

There is, of course, the economic side. This region is part of a trade corridor. Can you highlight this specific aspect of it? Turkey, Russia and other players have an interest in that trade corridor and in securing it. It seems as if the people of the Karabakh region are paying the price for this.

If you could give us a background on this aspect, that would be good.

[Andrew Turner]

Mr. Chair, I think the committee members have all seen many examples of Russian propaganda and disinformation. I'll make it clear that we cannot take anything Moscow says at face value. Certainly, we're seeing extensive criticism of the performance—or lack thereof—of the Russian peacekeepers, from both the population of Nagorno-Karabakh and the Armenian government.

Efforts to integrate the trade corridors will remain key elements of the discussions as they go forward. In terms of reaching a peace agreement, this is one of the principles agreed to in the 2020 ceasefire. Prime Minister Pashinyan of Armenia has repeatedly indicated that this is something that can be discussed, but it also requires reciprocal treatment and for the trade corridors throughout the south Caucasus to be opened up.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

One thing comes to mind—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

I'm afraid you're out of time.

We'll next go to MP Oliphant. You have six minutes.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Ambassador Turner.

I don't want to understate how important it is to have you coming to us from Yerevan. About a dozen or more years ago, I went to Armenia, came back and wrote a report asking the Conservative government to open an embassy in Yerevan. It has taken our government a while to do it as well. I'm glad it is finally happening. I'm glad to see you there, personally.

I also think I will mention to Erica, our former clerk, that you should meet with the pages at some point. I'm sure many of them would love to know they could be ambassadors as well, some day. It's very important.

I have a couple of questions.

The first question is on the humanitarian state in Armenia. There are 100,000 people arriving. You say they're moving from immediate shelter issues to longer-term issues.

What do you see as Canada's role in that?

[Andrew Turner]

The role the Armenian government is playing in accommodating these refugees is very impressive and has been singled out by everyone I have met with since I arrived, both in the international community and domestically. They've done a tremendous job of accommodating such a rapid influx of people in such a short time, particularly because there was already a pre-existing population of thousands of refugees—going back to the 2020 conflict—and because Armenia is hosting refugees from other countries, such as Syria, and from other conflicts.

The key challenges now will be moving to support for the government's efforts to integrate the population. Again, this will be moving from emergency supplies of food and shelter to expanding schools to accommodate the larger number of children, expanding medical facilities to accommodate the larger population and, perhaps most importantly, working to support efforts to expand economic opportunities and provide employment.

Prime Minister Pashinyan has signalled that he views this as an opportunity to integrate the population, but a lot of work needs to be done, so the expertise and support of partners and allies, including Canada, is something the Armenian government is actively pursuing.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

Thank you.

I note your comments that Prime Minister Pashinyan has stated that he's hoping for peace and normalized relationships with both Azerbaijan and Turkey. Do you think this is a genuine possibility that can happen? Will those three partners move towards normalized relations in my lifetime?

[Andrew Turner]

I certainly think so. As a diplomat, I'm naturally optimistic about the possibilities for diplomacy to avoid conflict, particularly when we see the tragic results when it is unsuccessful. There have been statements from all of the parties involved that they are committed to seeking a peace agreement. The benefits of such an agreement would flow to all of the countries in the region, as well as, more broadly, to seeing the south Caucasus able to function as an integrated economic unit. Really, the only disadvantage would be to Russia, which has been able to kind of play them off against each other to its own benefit.

Again, it is in everyone's best interest. There are, at least, clear statements of intent. The trick will be to try to make sure that those statements are followed up on. Certainly Canada, through the embassy here or through other engagements with Baku and with Ankara, is doing everything it can to encourage that.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

Thank you.

Stéphane Dion, as our special envoy, went to Armenia and came back with a very lengthy and, I think, quite important report, including the recommendation that we open an embassy.

Is it part of your work plan to take that report and find ways to actualize it?

[Andrew Turner]

Yes, it absolutely is. I have already been in touch with Ambassador Dion, who remains very much involved and committed to seeing that there is follow-up on his report. I am pleased to say that we've already been able to act on several of the recommendations, perhaps most importantly the opening of the embassy and also the initial round of consultations between Canada and Armenia that we held last year.

In terms of engagement with civil society, we have been able to approximately double the funding for the Arnold Chan initiative for democracy under the Canada fund for local initiatives since its inception back in 2018. We're now at about $230,000 and are now funding up to six projects. We're not yet at the stage of the 10 to 15 projects that Ambassador Dion recommended, but we have made significant progress in that direction. Now I and the embassy team on the ground very much intend to engage further on advancing the other recommendations as well.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

Thank you.

I just have a few seconds to close.

Thank you for your work. I think it's the right person in the right place at the right time. I think that your regional impact can be as important as the direct impact in Armenia. We needed to have a true voice in Yerevan. Moscow is not an easy place to get intelligence. I'm glad to have an intelligent person getting intelligence.

Thank you, Ambassador.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you very much.

We now go to MP Bergeron. You have six minutes.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would begin by echoing the words of my colleague Mr. Oliphant, who spoke not only of the importance of having representation and having you present in Yerevan, Your Excellency, but also of the significance of opening a Canadian embassy in Yerevan. In my opinion, it has taken far too long for this to happen, but the embassy is finally open, and I'm very happy about that. I congratulate the government on finally going ahead and opening this embassy.

Your Excellency, I'm very happy to see you again. We've previously spent some time together, but it was only this morning that I learned you'd been a page in the House of Commons. I hesitate to ask if you were a page when I first became an MP.

Mr. Sinclair, thank you so much for being with us as well.

In December 2022, in violation of the ceasefire agreement reached after the 2020 war, Azerbaijan allowed, indeed organized, the blockade of the Latchine corridor, leading to famine among the Nagorno-Karabakh population. The unstated aim of this blockade was to rid Nagorno-Karabakh of its population.

Presumably considering that things weren't proceeding quickly enough, Azerbaijan decided to act, on September 19, by invading Nagorno-Karabakh, triggering an exodus of its population: over 100,000 inhabitants of Nagorno-Karabakh fled to Armenia. This led Canada's Ambassador and Permanent Representative to the United Nations, Mr. Bob Rae, to describe the situation as "a complete failure of global diplomacy in the face of ethnic cleansing."

I imagine the international community cannot remain indifferent and inactive in the face of an ethnic cleansing operation recognized as such by our permanent representative to the United Nations.

At a press conference, Minister Mélanie Joly, accompanied by her Armenian counterpart, explained that all options were on the table when it came to Azerbaijan.

What are those options, Your Excellency? Do they include possible sanctions?

[Andrew Turner]

Yes. During her visit here in Armenia last week, Minister Joly repeated directly, in response to the specific question about the possibility of sanctions, that all options were indeed still under consideration.

That is still a measure we use, if warranted. We prefer not to resort to it and resolve the problem through diplomacy instead. It is, however, an important mechanism at our disposal and one that we have used in a number of cases, perhaps starker ones, for example in response to Russia's invasion of Ukraine. So it is certainly one of the options.

In addition, we have made arrangements for Canada to be the first country outside the European Union to participate in the observation mission to ensure that we have information coming directly from the border. We are also working with all our allies and partners to ensure that messages stressing the importance of respecting sovereignty and territorial integrity and not resorting to the use of military forces reach Baku directly, as well as Ankara, which, of course, has a great deal of influence over Azerbaijan.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you, Your Excellency, for reminding us of our reasons for imposing sanctions on Russia following the invasion of Ukraine.

That said, you are not unaware that in 2020, and again more recently, over the past few months, Azerbaijan has invaded patches of Armenia's sovereign territory. In fact, it still occupies said territory. So not only has Azerbaijan attacked the autonomous territory of Nagorno-Karabakh, which lies within its own territory, it has also invaded parts of Armenia's territory. I think this requires action on the part of the international community, especially in the face of what Ambassador Bob Rae has acknowledged is ethnic cleansing. We have a duty to act.

Your Excellency, you are doubtless very hopeful that a peace agreement will be reached between Armenia and Azerbaijan, and between Armenia and Turkey. I'd like to share your hope and optimism. In the meantime, in the event of a peace agreement, how do we ensure that Azerbaijani families don't move into Armenian homes in Nagorno-Karabakh? Otherwise, we'll end up with a situation that's frozen or set in stone and won't allow for the eventual return of families to Nagorno-Karabakh.

That was my first question.

Secondly, what guarantee do we have, on Azerbaijan's part, that Nagorno-Karabakh's centuries-old cultural assets will be protected?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Mr. Bergeron, you're out of time.

Ambassador Turner, if you could respond very briefly to the two questions in 30 seconds, we'd be grateful.