Evidence of meeting #81 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was war.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Excellency Natalka Cmoc  Ambassador of Canada to Ukraine, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Matthew Hollingworth  World Food Programme Representative and Country Director for Ukraine, United Nations World Food Programme
Michael Harvey  Executive Director, Canadian Agri-Food Trade Alliance
Gayle McLaughlin  Manager, Government and Industry Relations, Canadian Canola Growers Association
Dave Carey  Vice-President, Government and Industry Relations, Canadian Canola Growers Association

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi

I call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting 81 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the Standing Orders. Therefore, members will be attending in person in the room as well as remotely by using the Zoom application.

I would like to make a few comments for the benefit of members and witnesses.

Before speaking, please do wait until I recognize you by name.

You may speak in the official language of your choice. Interpretation services are available.

Although this room is equipped with a powerful audio system, feedback events can occur. These can be extremely harmful to interpreters and can cause injuries. The most common cause of sound feedback is an earpiece worn too close to a microphone.

With regard to a speaking list, the committee clerk and I will do our very best to maintain a consolidated order of speaking for all members, whether they are participating virtually or in person.

In accordance with the committee's routine motion concerning connection tests for witnesses, I am informed by the kind clerk that the committee has done connection tests in advance of our meeting.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motions adopted by the committee on Monday, January 31, 2022 and Tuesday, May 30, 2023, the committee resumes its study of the situation at the Russia-Ukraine border and implications for peace and security.

We are very grateful to have with us today, for the first hour, our new ambassador to Ukraine, Her Excellency Natalka Cmoc.

We're terribly sorry about the headphone challenge you had last time. We're very much looking forward to your appearance today, Madam Ambassador.

Madam Ambassador, did you want five minutes or 10 minutes for your opening remarks?

11:05 a.m.

Her Excellency Natalka Cmoc Ambassador of Canada to Ukraine, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

I can do it in five minutes.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi

Great.

We will commence with your opening remarks, after which we will open it to questions from the members.

If you see me holding this telephone in the air, it means that we're asking that you wrap up your remarks as soon as possible. That applies not only to your opening remarks but also to the questions posed by the members as well.

That said, welcome. The floor is yours, Madam Ambassador.

11:05 a.m.

Natalka Cmoc

Dear committee members, thank you for giving me the opportunity to give you an update on the situation in Ukraine from Kyiv. I arrived in mid-August and saw first-hand the determination of the Ukrainian people to oppose Russia’s brutal war of aggression.

I was posted here at a time when the country was still divided. That is not what I see today. On the contrary, the country is more united than ever. Clearly, Ukrainians have entered a post-colonial period where they want a clear separation from Russia. They also want reconciliation and recognition of past Soviet misdeeds, such as the Holodomor and forced Russification. They want to be modern and European, preserve their democratic society and media freedom, and work toward a more equitable society.

Make no mistake: Russia is threatened by this. This is a war against Ukrainian identity.

Russia purposely targets civilians. Just one month ago, Russia killed 59 civilians in one strike on the little village of Hroza, which has a total population of only 330 people.

Russia steals people. An estimated 1.6 million have been forcibly displaced to Russia. Almost 20,000 of these are children.

This is a war with global impact, as Russia weaponizes food and winter. Ukraine is bracing for an even more challenging winter as Russia is yet again targeting critical energy infrastructure, while damage from last year has not been fully rebuilt. Since February 2020, Russia has stolen six million tonnes of Ukrainian wheat, worth $1 billion U.S., and sold it themselves. It destroyed 280,000 tonnes of grain and 27 ports, and actively blockades Ukrainian ships.

Ukraine's counteroffensive grinds on at a huge cost of life. Notwithstanding recent gains in the east and south, there's a growing realization that it will be a longer war than hoped. Ukrainians have full confidence that with President Zelenskyy's leadership, they can win, but they need military support. In particular, they need air defence and ammunition.

Ultimately, this is a test of resolve. Ukraine's top priority is winning this war, both on the battlefield and in countering disinformation. This is why Ukraine deeply appreciates Canada being among the first countries to launch negotiations for long-term security commitments, including multi-year funding.

It is estimated that at least $420 billion will be needed to repair the damage caused by the war, and we are being asked to find creative ways to use Russian assets seized and frozen. This is an opportunity for Canada to create joint ventures with Ukrainian and other partners to rebuild the country, which will benefit Ukraine, Canada and other countries in the fields of food production, information technology and energy.

I'll close with an issue close to all Canadians.

Russia's deliberate policies to erase the identity of Crimean Tatars as an indigenous people of Ukraine is particularly appalling. Russia denies their status as an indigenous autonomous nation and reduces them to a minority. Since 2014, approximately 200 of the 300 political prisoners in Crimea have been Crimean Tatars.

Russia's conscription has focused on minority populations in Russia and occupied territories, including Crimea. At a time when Canada is pursuing truth and reconciliation domestically, it is important that Canada stand up for the protection of indigenous peoples around the world.

The longer this war drags on, the higher the cost to the world. Ukraine is resolved to defeat Russia and not settle. They are seeking full restoration of Ukraine's sovereignty and territorial integrity. They want the return of political prisoners of war and the taken children, and are demanding that the world help achieve accountability for Russia's crimes.

Rest assured that the Canadian embassy team is now fully operational, is standing up to the challenge and will continue to stand alongside Ukrainians.

Thank you.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi

Thank you very much, Madam Ambassador.

We turn to the members.

The first member up is MP Chong.

You have six minutes.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Ambassador, for appearing in front of us today. I wish you well in your new post.

You mentioned in your opening comments that Ukraine needs more military aid, in particular air defence and ammunition.

About a month ago in front of the defence committee, General Wayne Eyre testified that the federal government has yet to reach a deal to increase output of artillery rounds, particularly the most used ammunition, which is the 155 millimetre ammunition used by Canada's M777 howitzers.

Can you tell us if there is an imminent plan to increase that ammunition production in Canada in order to assist Ukraine in its war efforts?

11:10 a.m.

Natalka Cmoc

I am actually not aware of the details of the commitment that Canada has made in terms of the production of ammunition for Ukraine.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON

Thank you.

The Minister of National Defence reaffirmed that “Canada will continue to support Ukraine for as long as it takes.”

At what point would Canada consider that the goals that have informed its support for Ukraine have been fulfilled?

11:10 a.m.

Natalka Cmoc

From what I understand, as the Prime Minister indicated clearly in the visit from President Zelenskyy in Canada, it's that Canada will stand with Ukraine for as long as it takes. From my understanding, it is that we'll stand with Ukraine until full territorial sovereignty is regained—that is, the 1991 borders. That is my understanding.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON

Thank you for clarifying that.

In other words, the objective of the Government of Canada's support for Ukraine is to see Ukraine returned to its pre-2014 boundaries—its 1991 boundaries, as you've just mentioned.

To that end, it looks like that objective is stalling. Ukraine's counteroffensive, which was launched in June of this year, has made virtually no gains and its effect at this point is inconclusive. What action is the Government of Canada taking to further meeting its objective, seeing that it's not currently moving in the right direction?

11:15 a.m.

Natalka Cmoc

From the information I'm receiving from our defence attaché and other sources, including the newly appointed defence minister here, our understanding is that we are seeing gains. This includes countering some of the recent forward motions of Russia in towns like Avdiivka; I cannot find the exact title, but it's around Bakhmut and south of Robotyne. Russia was not successful in capturing Avdiivka and Vuhledar.

Ukraine is making gains south and east, although it's slow. Part of the challenge is that as they make gains, Russia is adding more minefields to that land. That's our understanding.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON

Are there any discussions going on in the government to provide more military support for Ukraine, seeing as that's been the big request by President Zelenskyy in his recent overseas trip?

11:15 a.m.

Natalka Cmoc

I can find the information shortly, but again, in the visit when the president came to Canada, we made additional commitments to military support.

One is that we are evolving the critical training for Operation Unifier. We are providing support—adding to other donors as well—to the F-16 program, which I understand begins in January 2024. We are also providing supports to cybersecurity needs. Also, I understand that there were armoured vehicle commitments. I cannot find the exact source, but I believe it's 650 million Canadian dollars' worth of armoured vehicles that will be beginning production in London, Ontario.

Those are some of the things that run off the base. I could get more information if you would like—

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON

Thank you, Ambassador.

I have two other quick questions.

You mentioned in your opening statement that some 20,000 Ukrainian children have been taken out of Ukraine into Russia. As my first question, does the government assess the abduction of those 20,000 children as war crimes under international humanitarian law?

11:15 a.m.

Natalka Cmoc

I'm not an expert in this area, but from what I've been told—and I sit on the peace formula working groups related to this—my understanding is that they are making a case on this already. I believe that this has already been found to be a war crime by—

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON

I'm short on time. I just want to ask you a second quick question. It's on the civilian casualties.

You mentioned civilian casualties. There have been roughly 27,500 civilian casualties in Ukraine, as reported by reputable sources. Does the government assess that all of those are war crimes?

11:15 a.m.

Natalka Cmoc

To answer your first question, detained children have been, I believe, considered a war crime, and there's an arrest warrant for Mr. Putin.

I think there's a current case being built up in terms of the civilians actively right now, including through the ICC, which Canada supports.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi

Thank you.

We will next go to Dr. Fry. Dr. Fry, you have six minutes.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Hedy Fry Liberal Vancouver Centre, BC

Thank you, Chair.

Good morning, Ambassador. Welcome. Thank you for coming.

I'm sorry about the little problem with your mike last time. We would have loved to hear from you.

Many of us are committed. As we well know, the Prime Minister said, “for as long as it takes”, “whatever it takes”. However, Canada is not the most armed nation in the world. We don't have the largest army. We don't have a lot of capacity to send as many arms as say, the U.S.

However, we've been sending arms, economic aid, training and humanitarian aid. With anything that we can do, Canada has been there.

However, it would seem to people like me, who have lived through it, that there's a fear that Ukraine—because of what's happening in Gaza right now and the other areas of conflict around the world—may eventually end up to be another Vietnam, which would be an absolutely horrifying thought.

We all saw last fall that Ukraine had moved forward and done a great deal of harm to Russia and taken some things, but we can say that right now there are only about 500 square miles of Ukrainian territory that have been recaptured.

I hear what you said that Ukraine is looking for, and I think that's really important. What do you see as a big problem?

One thing we have been counting on is sanctions. I am told that in fact Kazakhstan has allowed itself to become a hub for arms, food, trade and all sorts of things coming from Iran, India, China and other areas, bypassing Europe's sanctions. Is that going to have an impact on Ukraine's ability to move forward? Is that a real problem? Are we concerned about that?

Second, I wanted to ask what is going to happen if we don't hurry, as a Parliament, and okay this trade deal that we're trying to do with Ukraine, because that's part of the economic strength that Ukraine is trying to muster for itself. What are the impacts if that doesn't happen? It's being stalled, as we well know, by the Conservatives.

Can you answer those two questions, please?

11:20 a.m.

Natalka Cmoc

Yes, we often have that noted to us in various meetings in terms of the concerns about the sanctions and working around them. We also understand that they are making a difference and making it a little bit more challenging or definitely more challenging for Russia. I have also heard of the Kazakhstan situation.

I think that Ukraine is also countering a lot of that by starting to make their own productions and meeting the needs, but I think that continued efforts with sanctions are definitely making a difference and are the right call.

I'm not sure I'm following the second question, so my apologies. If it's in terms of a position in Canada to be able to contribute in trade, then that there are two large conferences that I'll be participating in over the next two weeks. One is in Warsaw, in terms of rebuilding energy, and the second one is in Toronto. It's a broader start to implementing some of the CUFTA commitments and trying to attract Canadian investors and businesses to work with Ukrainians. It will have the participation, from what I understand, of both Ukrainian and Canadian businesses, to see where there might be some possible areas.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Hedy Fry Liberal Vancouver Centre, BC

There is a trade agreement that's pending with Ukraine. It has to go through Parliament and it's being stalled right now.

This would seem to be a very negative thing to do, given Ukraine's needs, given the winter coming, the lack of food and the lack of fuel. Given all of those kinds of things, it would be really important for Ukraine to get that economic independence of having a trade deal.

That was what I wondered. Do you know what the impact of that would be?

With regard to the issue of the children, I know that the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe and the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe's Parliamentary Assembly have agreed that the abduction of these children constitutes a war crime.

If Putin is the problem and Putin cannot leave his country because he's wanted outside of his borders for war crimes, is that going to create a negative impact for Russia, or does it matter?

11:20 a.m.

Natalka Cmoc

What we have seen is that Mr. Putin has not participated in some of the meetings and has sent a replacement delegate. It is believed that is because of the arrest warrant that is out in his name. We have seen that in South Africa, for example.

I think Ukrainians believe that it is making a difference in terms of his participation.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Hedy Fry Liberal Vancouver Centre, BC

Thank you.

Mr. Chair, I have one more question. Are you hopeful, Ambassador, that we are able to push back and to regain everything, including Crimea? What is needed to do that?

11:25 a.m.

Natalka Cmoc

I would say that the country is incredibly positive and united and very grateful for this global support, and hopes to continue that pressure.

As we saw in the various summit meetings, the last one being in Malta to discuss the peace formula, we're seeing an increase of interest. This last meeting in Malta had 66 countries attending and offering to participate in the discussions on the 10-point peace plan.

Yes, I think there is overall hope that they will be successful. The concern is how long it is going to take and what it is going to take.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi

Thank you.

We now go to Mr. Bergeron.

You have six minutes.