Foreign Affairs Committee on Nov. 6th, 2023

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Your Excellency, I am very pleased to see you here today. I would like to take this opportunity to wish you all the best in your new mandate. Although I am just as sorry as my colleagues about the situation that occurred during your first appearance, I must admit that I am probably the only one who benefited from this small technical problem, I might say. As you know, at the time, I was in Berlin, where I met someone you know well. I am therefore very pleased to have the opportunity to speak with you today.

You said in your opening remarks that Ukrainians realized

“that it will be a longer war than hoped.”

Surprisingly, during President Zelensky’s visit to Ottawa, the government announced an additional $650 million over three years to provide Ukraine with 50 armoured vehicles, including medical evacuation vehicles.

Why is this help spread over three years? Is it because the Government of Canada believes the conflict could last up to three years?

[Natalka Cmoc]

It's estimated that it's going to take a little bit longer to win. Again, this is just what I'm hearing from the Ukrainians. They believe that Mr. Putin is holding out to see what the American elections will do. Mr. Putin is having a protracted war and just has to keep steady pressure. It's on the Ukrainian side to be able to make progress in terms of the countermeasures, both in the east and in the Black Sea. We are seeing some advances in the Black Sea as well.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

We know that Ukraine needs these armoured vehicles, of course, but it needs ammunition. At the end of September, General Eyre acknowledged that Canada’s current production rate of 3,000 155‑millimetre shells per month was the same as it was before February 2022.

Why not speed up the production to meet the needs of the Ukrainian army?

[Natalka Cmoc]

This is beyond my understanding of how that works in Canada, but I do understand from colleagues and the defence attaché—who I heard say that it's not just Canada but throughout the western world—that being able to keep up with production appears to be a bit of a challenge. Countries are needing to figure out together and independently how they can increase some of the production. It seems to be a global issue.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

In an interview published on October 30 in Time magazine, the Ukrainian president expressed concern about the impact of the conflict in Israel and Palestine on the global geopolitical situation. He feared that the Ukrainian conflict would be somewhat forgotten by the international community, given the current focus on the conflict in the Middle East. What is your perspective on the issue?

On the other hand, do you not believe that this new conflict, like the one that is still going on between Azerbaijan and Armenia, favours more or less the interests of Russia, which aims to divert the attention of the international community from what is happening in Ukraine?

[Natalka Cmoc]

It indeed is something that we're hearing the Ukrainians are absolutely concerned about, but we're also hearing—and I hear that too—that key international partners indicate that the situation in Israel will not affect their steadfast support for Ukraine. That includes U.S. Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin, who assured President Zelenskyy that the U.S. will continue to provide Ukraine with the necessary support without interruption. As well, U.S. National Security Advisor Jake Sullivan said that the U.S. can provide aid to both Ukraine and Israel. As well, the European Commission has stated that the situation in Israel will not lead to decreased support to Ukraine.

These are the same types of statements that we're hearing from Canada. We seem to be well aligned.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Your Excellency, your predecessor explained in the media last April that the embassy was open, but carried out only limited functions. Conversely, you said you hope to have your full team of 22 diplomats by October. What progress is being made?

[Natalka Cmoc]

Mr. Chairperson, we had an almost entire replacement of the team this past summer, so we now have a team of 22 Canadian-based staff and 50 locally engaged staff present, and we are resuming a lot of our work. We're still waiting on some of our equipment that needs to be replaced, but we are operating in I believe 90% of full mode, and I believe that within a month or so we'll able to be back to where we were pre-war in our services.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Excellency, since the beginning of the conflict, the security situation in Ukrainian territory has been volatile, but it has not prevented foreign elected representatives from travelling to Kyiv to support our ally. Of the G7 members, only Japan and Canada have yet to send a parliamentary delegation to Ukraine. The Prime Minister, ministers and senior officers of the Canadian Armed Forces travel to Kyiv, but MPs are still not allowed to do so. If they go there on their own, as our colleague Ms. McPherson has done, they bear the costs themselves.

Is it because the embassy would be unable to provide support for a Canadian parliamentary delegation?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Can you keep your response to 20 seconds, please?

[Natalka Cmoc]

We will be in position to be able to host delegations here, and that could be as early as winter.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you.

We now go to MP McPherson.

You have six minutes.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for being with us today, Your Excellency. It's nice to see you. Congratulations on your new position.

Just to follow up on what my colleague Mr. Bergeron has said, it would be very important, I think, for this committee to visit Ukraine, to be able to go to Kyiv. I know that what I saw when I was there in March has fundamentally strengthened my resolve to support Ukraine, which was already an extraordinarily strong resolve.

We've talked a bit about the fact that Ukraine requires military support. We also know that there are some limitations on the military support that Canada can provide. We are not, as Madam Fry said, a well-equipped military, but what we are known for is our demining efforts, and we do know that right now Ukraine is one of the most mined countries in the world. We know that it is a huge deterrent to making progress, particularly in the southern parts of Ukraine.

Can you talk a bit about the support that Canada has provided, and then what more support Canada could provide with regard to demining? We do have this expertise, and this is something that Canada could be increasing our support for.

[Natalka Cmoc]

Yes, Canada is leading on both military and humanitarian demining, and we are making a lot of contributions here. I'd be happy to send the details. They're just not at my fingertips.

I did just visit two days ago one of the training sites near Lviv— I can't provide the exact details—with humanitarian demining and saw in action 160 Ukrainians who have been trained for humanitarian demining so far. They've already had, I think, eight classes of 30 people each. That's just one example. The Canadian military has also been providing a lot of support in terms of operational demining, as well as a lot of equipment. I will need to find that information and send that to you to directly, separately, as I can't seem to find it currently.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you. That would be useful.

When I was in Kyiv in March I met with a group of teenagers who were going out with very rudimentary equipment to demine fields so that people could go back into communities like Irpin and Bucha. For me, this seems like something that would align perfectly with Canada's interests. To be able to provide those supports, I think, is important.

Another key support I think we want to be able to see is support for the ICC and ICJ investigations. In the international human rights committee, of which I'm also a member, we are looking at the stealing and taking of 20,000 Ukrainian children. It is obviously horrific.

Canada has supported that investigation, but there is obviously a long road ahead in terms of making sure that tools are available to identify and to build that case. Is Canada involved in that at all?

[Natalka Cmoc]

The ICC has just recently opened up a field office. We are present, and in fact when I went to hear Prosecutor Khan speak, he thanked Canada specifically.

We recently increased the number of Canadian personnel deployed here to 10, and also provided $2 million to the ICC trust fund to increase the court's capacity to investigate criminal activities, including sexual and gender-based crimes and crimes against children.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

I want to note that Ukraine and Russia are not signatories to the Rome Statute, as are other regions that are currently at war, so Canada should be applying the rule of law equally to all regions.

One other concerning thing we've seen recently coming out of Russia is that Putin is pulling back on the Comprehensive Nuclear-Test-Ban Treaty.

How concerned are you with that? What is Canada's position on that?

[Natalka Cmoc]

It is a concern. From what I understand, we've seen evidence that they have started performing some tests as well. I would be able to provide the information that I have from here, and I agree that it is concerning.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

When you say they've started to do the tests—I know this is asking for an opinion—can you tell me whether you think this is sabre-rattling and is just meant to be a deterrent, meant to be a threat? How valid do you think that threat is at this point?

[Natalka Cmoc]

I understand that Russia's parliament completed the legislative process of de-ratifying the Comprehensive Nuclear-Test-Ban Treaty by unanimous vote in the upper chamber of parliament. A presidential decree is expected soon to complete the unusual step of de-ratification.

While Russia insists that it is not withdrawing from the treaty, we are seeing reports of Russian nuclear training exercises, and Canada is monitoring the situation.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you.

We now move into the second round.

First up is MP Chong. You have five minutes for this round.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Since a member on this committee made a partisan comment about Conservative support for Ukraine, I'd like to clarify the record on Conservative support for Ukraine.

Mr. Chair, it was a Conservative government that, on December 2, 1991, was the first nation amongst western nations to recognize Ukraine's independence. It was a Conservative government, under Prime Minister Stephen Harper, that negotiated the Canada-Ukraine free trade deal that is currently in place.

It was the same Conservative government that initiated Operation Unifier, which, I would note, the opposition voted against at the time on the question of funding, Operation Unifier being critical in ensuring that Ukraine's military was prepared for the Russian invasion. In fact, many people were surprised by how Ukraine fought back when Russia began its invasion in February of last year, and many people attributed the strength of Ukraine's armed forces to Operation Unifier, which was initiated under a Conservative government.

It was the same Conservative government, I would remind members of this committee, that changed the “G8” to the “G7”. It was under the leadership of Prime Minister Harper that Russia was expelled from the G8 for its behaviour and for its belligerence toward Ukraine, which is why we now have the G7 rather than the G8. It was the same prime minister, I would remind members of this committee, who at the G20 told President Putin directly to his face, as captured on camera, that, quote, “You need to get out of Ukraine” at the G20 summit in Australia. Also, as this country's official opposition, we have continued on with that strong support for Ukraine.

In this Parliament, we made numerous calls on the government in 2021 and early 2022 to provide lethal military equipment to Ukraine, a call for action that the government refused to uphold. In fact, on January 27, 2022, less than a month before Russia's invasion of Ukraine, when it was clear to all that Russia was going to invade Ukraine and when our closest military allies were providing lethal military aid, Prime Minister Trudeau refused and said, quote, “The solution to this tension should be diplomatic.”

Then, several weeks later, I note to members of this committee, he flip-flopped, and in a quiet cabinet decision taken 10 days before the invasion began on February 24, announced on February 14 that the government was willing to provide lethal aid. I would add, Mr. Chair, that it was too little, too late, to pre-empt the invasion.

In all of these initiatives, it was Conservatives who led in the support for Ukraine.

Mr. Chair, I hope that clarifies the record for members of this committee about Conservative support for Ukraine, and I cede the floor to you.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you. You still have a minute and a half remaining.

Mr. Aboultaif, did you want to take it?

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

Your Excellency, I have a couple of questions for you.

The positions of the international community as far as the Russian invasion of Ukraine goes haven't been all the same. Do you believe that some of those positions have been influenced by economic reasons? If you can give an example, that would be good.

Thank you.