Evidence of meeting #87 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was armenian.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:40 p.m.
Liberal
Sameer Zuberi Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I would like to ask the witnesses what the current situation is for ethnic Armenian refugees who have migrated and fled the Nagorno-Karabakh region into Armenia.
I'll put this question to Ms. Wistrand, given that she has expertise in IDP—internally displaced people—and migration. If other witnesses want to add anything, please do so.
12:45 p.m.
Deputy Director, Kennan Institute, Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars, As an Individual
Thank you.
Again, I haven't been on the ground in Armenia, so I can't say over the past two months what has taken place there. From what I've followed by looking at UNHCR and others, the government has done a very good job of taking care of people as best they can. People are not living in tents. They've been taken into homes or other types of settlements. It's the longer-term integration that's going to be a difficulty.
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
Sameer Zuberi Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC
Thank you. I appreciate that comment and testimony.
My next question relates to ICJ and the ruling between Azerbaijan and Armenia. How is it being enforced? What role do the different actors have in this?
With respect to the ruling being respected by both sides, would any of the witnesses be able to comment on that?
12:45 p.m.
Professor of History, University of Massachusetts Amherst, As an Individual
I'm sorry, but what exactly is the ruling? I'm not familiar with what you're referring to.
December 4th, 2023 / 12:45 p.m.
Liberal
Sameer Zuberi Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC
I guess if it's something that you're not familiar with, I'll go to another point.
I'm sorry. I was a bit thrown off by the order. I was expecting to go third.
Ms. Wistrand, you said that in terms of the groups that were in the Minsk Group—
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
Sameer Zuberi Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC
Can you talk about Georgia and how it would be a positive actor with respect to mediation?
12:45 p.m.
Deputy Director, Kennan Institute, Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars, As an Individual
Thank you.
I think they could be a good mediator. They have essentially been a de facto mediator between the two countries for the past 30 years. You also have ethnic Armenian and ethnic Azerbaijani populations who have been long-term residents in the country and have peacefully co-existed there. I think it creates the context in which Georgia could do that.
Its biggest issue is the fact that 20% of its land is occupied by Russia, so it puts it in a precarious position.
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
Sameer Zuberi Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC
Mr. Chair, I will give the time back to the committee.
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi
Thank you, MP Zuberi.
We will next go to MP Bergeron.
You have four minutes, sir.
12:45 p.m.
Bloc
Stéphane Bergeron Bloc Montarville, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Ms. Wistrand, does the fact that Russia occupies 20% of Georgia's land explain Georgia's recent refusal to act as a mediator or host mediation talks?
12:45 p.m.
Deputy Director, Kennan Institute, Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars, As an Individual
Is the question about Georgia and why it's refusing to act in terms of mediation with respect to its territory?
12:45 p.m.
Bloc
Stéphane Bergeron Bloc Montarville, QC
Does the fact that Russia occupies 20% of Georgia's land explain Georgia's recent refusal to act as a mediator or host peace talks?
12:45 p.m.
Deputy Director, Kennan Institute, Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars, As an Individual
Georgia is a complicated situation. As I mentioned, it has ongoing disputes with Russia with respect to Abkhazia and South Ossetia, which comprise 20% of its territory. There's been a discussion of the 3+3 agreement between Turkey, Russia and Iran, and Azerbaijan, Georgia and Armenia. Georgia has thus far, with the two meetings that have taken place, recused itself and not wanted to participate. I think that is because it feels it should not have to be subject to Russia by being a party to a six-party talk when Russia is not freely negotiating with it.
I think Georgia could effectively work as a mediator with Azerbaijan and Armenia. Again, it's going to constantly have that pressure of, if it missteps, whether Russia is going to somehow...because there's already a creeping occupation going on with Russia.
12:50 p.m.
Bloc
Stéphane Bergeron Bloc Montarville, QC
Ms. McPherson and I had the privilege of travelling to Armenia recently and meeting with refugees from Nagorno-Karabakh. All the people we spoke with wanted the same thing, to return to Nagorno-Karabakh. Until that happens, three issues really concern me.
First, how do we protect cultural heritage sites until a peace deal is struck?
Second, how do we prevent these people's homes from being occupied, which would make their return impossible?
Third and finally, how do we help those refugees briefly return home to retrieve important documents or pets they left behind in the rush to leave?
12:50 p.m.
Deputy Director, Kennan Institute, Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars, As an Individual
These are all excellent points.
With respect to cultural sites, I think that both sides, Azerbaijan and Armenia, would be in agreement that cultural sites need to be protected. For the past 30 years Azerbaijanis have wanted to make sure that their cultural sites in Shusha and other areas are protected, so I think protecting Armenian cultural sites would be absolutely something that would be upheld.
With respect to residents being able to return and collect their belongings, again, I think Azerbaijan would want that, because they didn't have that when that happened, as Professor Altstadt mentioned, 30 years ago when 659,000 people were pushed out. They were not able to go back in to collect their belongings, so it should be emphasized that, yes, Armenians should be allowed to go back and collect their belongings and that should be part of any type of negotiated peace agreement, certainly with documents.
The trickier question is about housing. Azerbaijanis were forced out 30 years ago. A lot of them would like to return. Now you have Armenians who would like to return. What are you going to do when you have two sets of people claiming the right to live in the same place? That's where a peace settlement is going to take a much longer time to adjudicate, but on the immediacy of documents—absolutely—and of cultural sites, those can be more quickly attested to.
12:50 p.m.
Liberal
12:50 p.m.
Bloc
Stéphane Bergeron Bloc Montarville, QC
Did you take into account the fact that I had to ask my first question twice?
12:50 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi
We're now at four minutes and 12 seconds. There are four minutes for each member.
12:50 p.m.
Bloc
Stéphane Bergeron Bloc Montarville, QC
Yes, but I had to repeat my first question because it wasn't understood by the witness.
12:50 p.m.
Liberal
12:50 p.m.
NDP
Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
Yes. I was just going to suggest that perhaps there would be unanimous consent among the committee members to allow Mr. Bergeron to ask his question.
