Foreign Affairs Committee on Dec. 6th, 2023

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you very much, and thank you to all the witnesses for being here today.

I want to take a moment to express my disappointment that neither minister was available to come to the committee. It's quite unprecedented that this is the case. While I appreciate your presence here, I do want to articulate how disappointed I think all of the committee is that the ministers were not available to answer these questions in person.

I wonder if you have any insight as to why that might be the case.

[Shirley Carruthers]

Thank you very much for the question.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure why they were not available to attend today.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

It's very disappointing.

I would like to ask a little bit about something that we learned recently.

Two weeks ago, I asked the government about land mine detonators that were sent to Kyrgyzstan from Canada and were diverted to Russia. Of course, Canada is funding land mine clearance in Ukraine, so there is a real concern that these detonators are being used to arm Russia and we are then paying for the demining.

When I asked that question in the House, the parliamentary secretary was unable to answer me at that time, and we have not heard back from the parliamentary secretary since then.

Can you tell me what the status of that investigation is and why Canada is exporting any land mine detonators at all?

[Shirley Carruthers]

Unfortunately, I don't have that answer with me.

I do know that Canada has one of the tightest regimes in terms of export strategies and controls. I would be very surprised if we were actually providing that kind of equipment. I will definitely go back to the department and try to find you an answer.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

I would really appreciate receiving written information on that. Saying we have a very tight regime and then hearing reports that we are in fact providing detonators to Russia.... That's the opposite of a tight regime, obviously.

New Democrats, of course, have been calling for more democracy in our arms exports for years. I am a little concerned when I hear that we don't know what is being sent, that there is no concept of how they're being used and where they're going.

How many staff within Global Affairs are tasked with tracking arms exports? What are the current staffing levels in the export division? Who among them are tasked with transparency and reporting to Parliament?

It's a bit of a long one.

[Shirley Carruthers]

Thank you very much for those questions.

Again, I don't have that information with me, but I would be happy to provide that in writing to the committee.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

That would be wonderful. Thank you.

I now have a couple of questions on Canada's Middle East strategy.

Votes 1b and 10b in the supplementary estimates include funding for Canada's Middle East strategy. With regard to the Middle East, and in particular the war in Israel and Palestine, what is the government's response to the proposal by the Israeli government ministers and Knesset members to voluntarily move Gazans to other countries because Israel is no longer “able to put up with the existence of an independent entity in Gaza”?

Does the government agree that moving Gazans to other countries in the Middle East or elsewhere would amount to ethnic cleansing and would therefore be illegal?

[Shirley Carruthers]

Thank you very much for your question.

Unfortunately, I don't have the information available to respond. I note that a colleague who is in charge of that region of the world is appearing during the second 50 minutes this afternoon. Perhaps that would be a question he may be prepared to respond to.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Certainly I will have many questions for him.

Mr. MacDougall, I know that you are an expert in the area. Do you have any insight into that question as well?

[Peter MacDougall]

I do not. Thank you.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

I have a second question.

Canada's Middle East strategy has four priority areas: security and stabilization, humanitarian assistance, development and building resilience, and diplomatic engagement.

With regard to the humanitarian crisis unfolding in Gaza, we are seeing all civilian infrastructure in the north being destroyed. We know that millions have been made homeless. We know that people are starving. Today we are seeing Israel flood tunnels with seawater, which will destroy infrastructure for decades to come. We are seeing orchards and farmers' fields being destroyed. We know that will impact food security for decades to come. We know that even though this conflict has killed tens of thousands of Palestinians, which includes over 7,000 children, it is also destroying the infrastructure of the region. Therefore, reconstruction—when and if that happens—is likely to cost trillions of dollars.

Who's going to pay for that reconstruction? Is Canada planning to increase its funding for this, given its role in allowing this violence to continue? What kind of financial responsibility will Canada be taking for the reconstruction of Gaza when this war is over?

[Shirley Carruthers]

Thank you very much for the question. I'll turn to my colleague Peter MacDougall for a response.

[Peter MacDougall]

Thank you.

I'll just respond with what we're doing now. In the West Bank and Gaza, on a regular basis, we spend $55 million a year. Of that, $35 million is humanitarian, and of that, $25 million goes to UNRWA for its work—

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

I'm sorry, sir. With all due respect, I'm asking what you will be doing in the future.

[Peter MacDougall]

I'm answering the question.

There's $20 million in development assistance. In addition, the government announced $60 million after the war began for humanitarian assistance. The focus of Canada—and, frankly, of all other donors—is on humanitarian assistance at the moment, because that is where the needs are most dire.

I would say that the question of reconstruction—and you're absolutely right—is one that will have to be addressed, but the immediate needs are for saving lives and humanitarian assistance.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Has there been a discussion on what the future rebuilding fund may look like?

[Peter MacDougall]

In my bailiwick, I focus on humanitarian assistance, so I have not been part of that.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you. I think that's my time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

I'm afraid so.

We now go to the second round. For the second round, you have five minutes.

MP Epp, the floor is yours.

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the officials for being here today.

Similar to the reallocation process and the red tape reduction process you're doing with your foreign affairs aspect, I understand you're also in that process with the grants and contributions. I also know that you're transitioning, potentially, out of a legacy system.

How have you engaged with Canadian CSOs, the civil society organizations, on that process? They're basically clients of that system. Can you describe that engagement?

[Shirley Carruthers]

Thank you very much for the question.

I'm unable to describe the engagement in great detail. I know that extensive consultations with Canadian partners have been taking place throughout the projects. This is really a multi-year project that we're calling our Gs and Cs transformation initiative. Throughout that process, we will be in contact with our partners to better understand what their requirements are.

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

I understand that they look forward to that.

When addressing a need, there are decisions to be made on whether to run that through multilateral or Canadian organizations. In that process of looking at grants and contributions, will the administrative burden or the accountability measures be examined so that it's just as easy for Global Affairs to award to a Canadian-based CSO versus a multilateral organization?

[Shirley Carruthers]

I would say that yes, all of our processes and all of our various enhancements and whatnot that we're doing will take those things into consideration. The overall objective of the Gs and Cs transformation is to reduce that administrative burden, both within the department and with all of our partners. We're even going so far as to work with the Treasury Board Secretariat on the grants and contributions policy and how we may be able to streamline to make things a bit easier for both.

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Thank you.

There are allegations that one of the recipients of multilateral funding, UNRWA, is complicit in war crimes. Can you comment?

[Shirley Carruthers]

Thank you very much for the question, but I don't have a comment on that.