Foreign Affairs Committee on Dec. 11th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

I'd like to call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 89 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the Standing Orders; therefore, members are attending in person in the room as well as virtually through Zoom.

I'd like to make a few comments for the benefit of members and witnesses.

Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name.

You may speak in the official language of your choice. Interpretation services are available.

Although this room is equipped with a powerful audio system, feedback events can occur. These can be extremely harmful to interpreters and cause serious injuries. The most common cause of sound feedback is an earpiece worn too close to a microphone.

With regard to a speaking list, the committee clerk and I will do our best to maintain a consolidated order of speaking for all members, whether they are participating virtually or in person.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Wednesday, November 8, 2023, the committee will resume its study of Canada's diplomatic capacity.

I'd now like to welcome our witnesses.

From the Macdonald-Laurier Institute, we have Mr. Balkan Devlen, who, of course, is well known to many of you. He is the director of the transatlantic program at the institute.

We also have two witnesses from the Société nationale de l'Acadie. We're grateful to have Mr. Martin Théberge, president, as well as Ms. Véronique Mallet, executive director.

Mr. Devlen and one of the witnesses from the Société nationale will each have five minutes for their opening remarks, after which we will go to members for questions.

If you see me holding this up, that means we'd like you to wrap it up within 10 to 20 seconds.

We will start off with Mr. Devlen.

The floor is yours.

[Dr. Balkan Devlen, Director, Transatlantic Program, Macdonald-Laurier Institute, As an Individual]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, for the opportunity to give evidence to the committee on the current state and future of Canada's diplomatic capacity in a turbulent world.

The geopolitical landscape has undeniably transformed in the past decade. The return of great power competition to the centre stage, particularly between the United States and the People's Republic of China; the rise of regional powers such as India and Turkey as more assertive actors in international politics; democratic backsliding across the world; the emergence of an authoritarian axis between China, Russia and Iran; and, of course, the return of major war to Europe with Russia's unprovoked and illegal war of conquest against Ukraine, just to name a few, are key developments we witnessed in the past decade or so.

Here is the unfortunate reality: It is likely to get worse in the coming years.

What can Canada do in such a world?

I'd like to offer the following observations today, in the time allocated to me.

National interest should be the lens through which Canadian foreign policy should be formulated and pursued. Thanks to our fortunate geography, Canada's national interest manifests itself mainly in two key directions in foreign policy and foreign affairs.

First, our relationship with the United States is of paramount importance to Canada's security and prosperity. In fact, it is existential. Maintaining and cultivating this special relationship, regardless of who is in power in Canada and the United States, must be the first priority. It cannot be taken for granted, and we cannot afford to be complacent and assume all will be well. Canada is and should remain a good friend and a reliable ally to the United States and be able to demonstrate this fact in words and deeds.

Second, as a trading nation, our prosperity heavily depends on a well-functioning, stable and open international order. Canada should do its part in defending and maintaining such an order. This in practice means working with our allies and partners in multilateral and minilateral settings, and contributing to their prosperity and security.

Doing so, however, requires bringing something tangible to the table, rather than just words, to enhance the security and prosperity of others. In Canada's case, let me suggest that our natural resources, from energy to agriculture to critical minerals, are our biggest advantage and leverage.

Canada is, in most cases, in the top five in terms of production, reserves or exporting what the world wants and needs. Our foreign policy priority should be having the necessary infrastructure, policies and capabilities to get those resources to world markets. This would reduce our allies' and partners' reliance on authoritarian or unstable regimes for their energy security and the critical minerals that are essential for energy transition, while helping to feed the world's most vulnerable. This is an area where Canada can make a difference in the world while increasing our prosperity.

I'd like to conclude by saying that interest-based foreign policy does not mean ignoring values. In fact, interests are downstream from values. Our fundamental national interest is the protection of Canada's security and prosperity. However, it is not limited only to physical security and material well-being. It is also about our ability to continue to enjoy and practise our way of life, including values and rights, such as the rule of law, human rights, democracy, free markets and freedom of expression, press and assembly. Defending them against threats, foreign and domestic, is in the Canadian national interest.

This means working with allies and partners in international fora with intention, and not blindly following the convention. We should identify the multilateral organizations that continue to advance our interests and double down on them. At the same time, we should have a hard look at which tables we do not need to be at and leave them when they no longer serve our purposes. It also means thinking creatively about international groupings, including minilateral arrangements of like-minded states centred around specific issues.

To quote from a recent piece I wrote with two co-authors:

Canada needs to pivot its approach. While there’s pride in our traditional image of being a cooperative country, the reality is that trying to be everywhere often means being nowhere.

It goes on:

With limited resources, we must take a discerning stance on where to invest Canada’s energies and make sure that the intended results are achieved.

Thank you very much for the opportunity, and I am looking forward to your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you very much, Mr. Devlen.

We now go to the Société nationale de l'Acadie.

You have the floor for five minutes.

[Martin Théberge, President, Société nationale de l'Acadie]

Good afternoon. Thank you for inviting us to come and explain the position of the Société nationale de l'Acadie, the SNA.

The Société nationale de l'Acadie, is the dean of Canadian francophone organizations. Since 1881, it has been working to defend the interests of the Acadian people. We are a non-profit federation of four francophone associations and four youth associations that represent the Atlantic provinces, and we also have some members in Quebec and around the world, wherever there are Acadians.

Our raison d'être is unique in Canada. The SNA represents a language community and works to promote and defend the rights and of a distinct people. Our presentation today is directly related to a brief we submitted in August 2022 under the official languages support programs. We provided the clerk with a copy so that you can consult it.

Throughout my presentation, I will be alluding to public diplomacy. Public diplomacy, in the sense of a “discrete power” is a form of diplomacy that complements government. it acts in a variety of areas like culture, mobility and exchanges, particularly in matters pertaining to youth, education, the arts and the economy.

These are the powerful words spoken by the Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs and Diaspora of the Republic of Kosovo at the Citizen Diplomacy Summit in 2022. This is how she described the basis of public diplomacy:

...citizens can play a vital role in promoting the objectives of our department.…they can act as very powerful advocates to increase our acceptance into the digital world and to build our economy and connect us with the rest of the world…

Acadia's considerable experience in international diplomacy goes back as far as the 1960s. It was at a historic meeting with General de Gaulle, the president of the Republic at the time, that the SNA forged a special relationship with France. This relationship has grown steadily through a succession of governments, for over 60 years.

Two years ago, a large Acadian delegation was received at the Élysée Palace by French President Emmanuel Macron. It was the only Canadian delegation to have been received at the palace since 2017. On this occasion, in response to my invitation, President Macron agreed to come to Canada for the Congrès mondial acadien to be held in Nova Scotia in August, 2024.

Last October in Paris, I had the honour of signing the renewal of the agreement between France and Acadia with the secretary of state to the minister for Europe and foreign affairs, who is responsible for development, la Francophonie and international partners. That makes the SNA the only non-governmental entity in the world to sign a bilateral agreement with France.

Since 2001, the SNA has also had a bilateral accord with the Wallonia-Brussels International agency on our relations with Belgian francophones. We are convinced that these kinds of agreements can foster much closer ties between Canada and its closest allies and partners.

Since 2005, the SNA has been an international non-governmental agency, or INGO, of la Francophonie, and it has been contributing actively to the INGOs of the Organisation internationale de la Francophonie, the OIF. The SNA regularly attends the Francophonie summits as part of Canada's accompanying delegation, thereby strengthening Canada's leadership role at the OIF.

In 2021, the SNA was also recognized as a non-governmental organization in an official partnership with UNESCO. Atlantic Canada's Acadia also has a unique geopolitical status in Canada, only a few nautical miles away from the French archipelago of Saint Pierre-et-Miquelon, whose population shares some of Acadia's history and heritage. This specific status led the SNA to play an active role on the Regional Joint Cooperation Commission between Atlantic Canada and Saint Pierre-et-Miquelon, on which it plays a preponderant role.

The SNA also plays a leading role in relations with Louisiana's Cajun community in matters of culture, French education, and youth mobilization.

We set an example for everyone of a stateless people with a strong civil society that plays a leading role in community government, youth and identity building; it has also become particularly well equipped to share its experience and knowhow around the world.

The measures and tools we have developed to promote our culture and our artists, in addition to encouraging francophone immigration and youth mobility, are unequaled in Canada. And yet, Canada still doesn't have a public diplomacy strategy, and the Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development still doesn't have any policies that would provide appropriate space for linguistic duality, which the Commissioner of Official Languages of Canada requested in a 2004 study on the disappearance of the public diplomacy program, the PDP.

We had been hoping to see our public diplomacy efforts given appropriate recognition in the new action plan for official languages, when the new Official Languages Act included the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade, DFAIT, for the first time. We were bitterly disappointed.

In connection with public diplomacy's major contribution to the development of the Acadian people, we recommend that the government of Canada develop a public diplomacy strategy and recognize the distinctiveness of Acadia and the organization that speaks on its behalf, the Société nationale de l'Acadie, as the principal stakeholder for public diplomacy and the promotion of French abroad.

It's time for the federal government to recognize this work and to provide us with the means to do it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you very much, Mr. Théberge.

We will now go to the members.

We'll start off with MP Hoback.

You have six minutes.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, witnesses, for being here in person. It sure makes it a lot easier than over Zoom.

I think I'll start with you, Mr. Devlen.

Do you think the skill sets at Global Affairs were the same in 2015 as what were required as of 2022? Do you think our roles at the embassies, serving abroad, should be functioning in the same manner, or have things changed?

[Dr. Balkan Devlen]

I would argue that, as the saying goes, personnel is policy. You need to have the proper set of skills, as well as resources given to those people to be able to pursue those goals and aims that the Government of Canada provides.

The world is not the same as it was in 2015. It has not been the same, at least for over a decade, but it is definitely not the same in the past eight to 10 years.

What we really need is to be able to provide, first and foremost, a clear direction from the Government of Canada to its diplomatic core and its associated employees, both here in Canada and abroad, to be able to target it, and that requires a clear overview of what needs to be done, what the skills are that need to be employed today, and whether the existing skills actually match the needs that Canada has today.

We cannot know without having a proper review of foreign policy.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

If the policy's right, if they're properly instructed on what the policy should be, then they should have the skill sets within the embassy or within Global Affairs to execute that policy.

Is that fair to say?

[Dr. Balkan Devlen]

That is fair to say.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Do you think, as you're bringing new employees into Global Affairs, that the skill sets should be modernized and changed, reflecting today versus 20 years ago?

[Dr. Balkan Devlen]

Absolutely. We need to be paying attention. We need to be much more agile in terms of how we draw from this diverse population that we have in Canada, in terms of both linguistic and cultural abilities, but also technical skills.

We need to modernize the way Canadians can engage, contribute and serve their nation, without necessarily having to go through a 24-month process to bring people in. We need to be much more agile to provide for others to be able to contribute and get in.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

I'm sorry, I have only six minutes. I don't mean to be rude.

Do you think it's fair, then, that we should have more Canadians taking education abroad and coming back into Global Affairs, instead of just feeding them through Canadian universities?

[Dr. Balkan Devlen]

I think it is important that more and more Canadians expand their horizons and have international experience. That, together with the existing multicultural nature of our nation, would enhance Canada's understanding of others, their interests and how those interests actually intersect with ours.

You cannot really do foreign policy from Ottawa; you need to be out there and understanding those issues.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

I was down in the U.S. a couple of weeks ago, talking to a group of master's students from Canada, and they actually felt that unless they went to Ottawa U or Carleton, they would not get into Global Affairs, because they think differently.

Is that a standard opinion? Would you agree with that comment?

[Dr. Balkan Devlen]

I do not know enough about the specific requirements that Global Affairs has when it engages in personnel policy, but I would argue that we can have a sense by looking at where the people working for Global Affairs Canada did their university and graduate work. We can take a view on that from an empirical perspective.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

How often do you think we should review the locations of missions, embassies and facilities like that? Is it something that should constantly be under review? Is it something that should be done on a five-year pattern, or are we good the way it is?

[Dr. Balkan Devlen]

I would suggest that it, again, follows through by clearly defining what our national interests are, where we need to focus our resources, and where we should have our embassies and presence to advance those interests.

As we plan them, we need to be regularly reviewing our ability to conduct foreign policy and advance our interests, and necessarily shift resources to pursue them, rather than being stuck in a place because we have been there for 25 years.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

When the minister comes out and makes statements like the one she made a couple of weeks ago about being honest brokers and being very active, do you think we're spreading ourselves too thin? Do you think we're trying to do too much, and not having a bang on anything?

[Dr. Balkan Devlen]

I would say that we are spreading ourselves too thin, yes, especially today, with the rise of regional powers and others. This is not the world of the 1960s or 1970s. Honestly, no one is really looking towards Canada to be an honest broker. You need to be able to bring something to the table, to be able to have influence and to contribute meaningfully to the security and economic interests of other countries for them to listen to you. We cannot continue to lecture others and pretend that we are bringing something to the table.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

If we don't have natural gas to sell, if we don't have petroleum products to sell, if we don't have critical minerals to sell.... What does Canada have for leverage right now, if we don't take advantage of the natural resources we have in place?

[Dr. Balkan Devlen]

That's why I suggested that we should use our biggest leverage, which is our natural resources. That would contribute not only to the prosperity and the security of our allies and partners, but also to Canadian prosperity. At the same time, it would elevate the world's most vulnerable, who are suffering. Therefore, we need to really focus on what our strengths are and what our allies and partners are desperately asking of us. We need to listen to them and provide those resources to them.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

I'm afraid you're out of time, Mr. Hoback.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Six minutes is just never enough.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

We next go to Mr. Zuberi for six minutes.

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

I'd like to thank all the witnesses for being here.

I'll begin with Mr. Théberge.

Thank you for your testimony. You said that Acadians ought to have more of a presence in our diplomacy, which is something I find very interesting. It's a good idea.

Canada is an officially bilingual country. Our officials speak French and English.

How does official bilingualism and the bilingualism of our diplomats help us pursue our international commitments?