Foreign Affairs Committee on March 3rd, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Good afternoon, colleagues. Welcome to meeting No. 9 of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development.

Pursuant to the motion adopted on January 31, 2022, the committee is meeting on the mandate letter of the Minister of International Development. To ensure an orderly meeting I would like to outline a few rules to follow, as usual.

Interpretation is available for this meeting by clicking on the globe icon at the bottom of your screen.

For those of you participating in person, please keep in mind the Board of Internal Economy's guidelines for mask use and health protocols.

Please note that taking screenshots or photos of your screen is not permitted. Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name.

When you have the floor, speak slowly and clearly. When you are not speaking, please put your microphone on mute.

I would also like to remind you that comments and observations made by members and witnesses must be directed to the chair.

Colleagues, without further ado, I would now like to welcome Minister Sajjan to the meeting along with a team of senior officials.

We have with us from the Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development, Peter MacDougall, deputy minister of international development and assistant deputy minister, global issues and development.

We also welcome Caroline Leclerc, assistant deputy minister, Partnerships for Development Innovation.

We also have Sandra McCardell, assistant deputy minister, Europe, Arctic, Middle East and Maghreb; and Paul Thoppil, assistant deputy minister, Asia-Pacific.

On behalf of the committee, I extend a very warm welcome to all of you.

Minister, I will now turn the floor over to you for five minutes of opening remarks. Members will then have the opportunity to ask questions.

Please go ahead, Minister Sajjan.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Minister of International Development and Minister responsible for the Pacific Economic Development Agency of Canada]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the members of this committee.

Good afternoon, everyone.

I'm here to speak with you today about Canada's international development portfolio. Before I begin, I want to address the current situation in Ukraine.

President Putin's invasion of Ukraine is a blatant attempt to replace the international rules-based order with a world where might makes right. This is an attack that undermines international law. This is an attack that undermines the efforts of the United Nations. I want to be clear: Ukraine is not Russia. The people of Ukraine must be free to determine their own future. We will stand alongside our Ukrainian sisters and brothers.

This pandemic has also shown us that, as a global community, we can come together during times of crisis to protect the lives of those who are threatened. Since the beginning of this pandemic, we have seen the first increase in extreme poverty in more than two decades, showing that we need to coordinate global action for long-term and sustainable solutions to overcome growing poverty and inequality. We need to improve food security and nutrition and expand education and job creation. We need solutions that focus on disadvantaged and marginalized groups, especially women and girls, who throughout the pandemic have been disproportionately affected. Women and girls have too often been responsible for caregiving duties during this pandemic, losing years of schooling and income.

As I said last week at the United Nations General Assembly, it is easy to look around at cities in the west and think that the pandemic that has ravaged our world is over, but what has been true for the west has not been true for the rest. The colour of your skin should not determine how long you must wait to receive a life-saving vaccine.

We all have a part to play to end this and to ensure equitable vaccine access. That is why Canada has been a leading donor to help end this pandemic. Canada has committed over $2.7 billion in international assistance to provide emergency health care and support increased disease surveillance and infection prevention. Canada has supplied water, sanitation and hygiene to help keep children in school. Just about half of these funds, $1.3 billion, has helped provide more equitable access to COVID-19 medical supports, from oxygen to personal protective equipment. Canada has made available 100 million doses through COVAX and bilateral donations.

We know that donations are not enough. Canada is supporting low- and middle-income countries to accelerate the distribution and production of COVID-19 diagnostics, therapeutics and vaccines in-country. Providing this support helps these countries build resilience to future health crises.

I also want to take a moment to talk about the importance of our feminist international assistance policy. This policy, created back in 2017, is extremely personal to me. I have seen what it means when you give women and girls real and meaningful opportunities. It was the opportunity my sister received when she came to Canada. She eventually became a Harvard graduate because of this, but she started going to school sitting underneath a tree. Since we adopted our feminist international policy back in 2017, we have increased our investment in initiatives that target gender equality by over 600%—from $86 million in 2017 to $610 million in 2020-21.

I also would like to take a moment to speak to our ongoing commitment to address the record levels of humanitarian need across the world. Canada's assistance has provided meaningful, timely and life-saving assistance to those most desperately in need. In 2021 Canada provided $43 million to meet humanitarian needs in Ethiopia. Since August 2021, Canada has allocated $106 million in humanitarian assistance in response to the desperate conditions facing many Afghans. We continue to work with key partners to find sustainable development solutions for Afghans, while ensuring that the rights of women and girls are at the heart of everything we do.

Mr. Chair and committee members, our government remains committed to building a better world—a world that is more equal, a world that is more just and a world that we all deserve to live in. Through our work and our international assistance efforts, Canada is achieving results, building a more peaceful, inclusive and prosperous world for all.

I look forward to your questions. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Minister Sajjan, thank you very much for your opening statement.

Colleagues, we will begin with our rounds of questions. You'll recall what I've done in the past. When you're down to the last 30 seconds in your time, I will signal with this yellow card. It's a very manual, very analog mechanism, but it is proven.

I'm advised that after the first hour, the minister will have to leave us. We will then continue with officials. For that reason, I will be particularly tight on time during the first hour to make sure that everybody gets their time in with the minister.

We will now go to round one for six-minute allocations.

Mr. Genuis, you are leading us off this afternoon. Please go ahead.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for being here, but I want to express my disappointment that you're only here for an hour. The committee has unanimously requested twice that you make yourself available for the full meeting. This is a critical file at a critical time, and your predecessor, Minister Gould, was always available.

Are you willing to stay for an extra hour, in accordance with the unanimous request of this committee?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Regrettably, I have a very important meeting that I need to attend. However, as I've said to you personally and to many others, I will make myself available to you at other opportunities as best as I possibly can to make sure your questions and concerns are answered in other ways.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Minister, I hope the next time you come to the committee, it will be for a two-hour time slot. Maybe we could even give you more opening statement time in the process.

I want to ask about the situation in Ukraine. Canada announced a donation matching program with the Canadian Red Cross. During past crises, I heard concerns that the government's selecting certain organizations and leaving others out in matching programs had the effect of directing private donations to particular organizations and not to others. In some cases, they're directed away from Canadian diaspora-led organizations with strong connections in both Canada and the recipient country.

Could you explain why the Red Cross is the only organization selected so far? I mean no disrespect to the Red Cross for the great work they do, but would the government considering matching opportunities for additional organizations with long track records, such as the Ukrainian Canadian Congress and the Catholic Near East Welfare Association?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

The question the member poses is one that I think many people also have. If I may, I'll explain the situation in Ukraine and the analysis we're using to provide the support.

First of all, we've been monitoring this situation in Ukraine very closely, even before, when the troops were being amassed. We're working very closely with the UN. That's why we went very early to announce the $50 million in development and humanitarian support. It was so that funds could be there and be ready to be flexible enough to provide humanitarian needs and be flexible enough if the situation changed, as it has.

When it comes to the matching program, we've worked with the Red Cross for some time and have a very good mechanism in place. Keep in mind that I have spoken with many of the other organizations, especially the UCC, about what support they provide, and we have other mechanisms to provide additional support if needed.

Because we have that one program doesn't mean that we can't use others as well. What we're trying to do is look at all the needs, address the gaps and provide the support, but do it in a way that's fast enough that it will make sure we have support on the ground. There is, for example, the $100 million that we announced.

This is all in anticipation. We'll work with other organizations, not just with one program. We'll look at other opportunities as well.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Minister, I understand what you're saying. That match program doesn't preclude other avenues of collaboration.

It does seem to me to be a problem, though, that in any crisis—and we've seen this in other cases—the immediate instinct is to go to the big international organizations, when there are Canadian diaspora-led organizations that are already very active on the ground and strongly connected to institutions on the ground. In some cases, they are more so than international organizations.

However, the knee-jerk instinct is that these are people we've worked with in every crisis, so let's go there. It doesn't seem to me that it would be that difficult to say that we know UCC and CNEWA are actively engaged on the ground in Ukraine, so let's match donations to these organizations since they know the problems and they know the issues.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

First of all, one thing I know is that Canadian generosity has a limit. Whether it's them working in Ukraine or other countries, we've been working very closely with the organizations that are here. I've been trying to meet as many as possible to look at how we can enhance their work and the work they're already doing, but what we're trying to do is look at the best way to move the support into the two organizations.

Like I said, I've spoken to the UCC and I've spoken to other organizations. We're looking at what the best way is to provide the quickest support. Sometimes when you do various programs, there are different mechanisms that you can go through. What we have been doing is trying to move as quickly as possible on this. In fact, we've been probably leading the way. It was us and Finland who initially were the only ones to provide donations to the UN, and we've been trying to get ahead and anticipate the problems.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Minister.

I want to get one more question in with the time I have. This is with respect to vaccine equity.

Your government has imposed increasingly coercive policies targeting Canadians who have chosen not to take the COVID-19 vaccine. Meanwhile, many people around the world still don't have access to vaccines. These are folks who want the vaccine and include, in some cases, frontline workers and the elderly.

In total, for the continent of Africa, less than 15% of people are fully vaccinated. It seems like it would be a win-win for your government to end vaccine mandates and increase the number of doses we're sending to other countries, so that we can get those vaccines into the arms of those who need them and want them.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I'm glad you're raising the point of vaccines for people around the world. It is very important.

Just imagine the complexity of moving vaccines in a country like ours. We have to work with and listen to the countries that we're trying to help. We're looking at not just the number of vaccines or therapeutics, but we need to look at their health system and what can be absorbed. We are working with many different organizations to move this as quickly as possible with one important point, that we will do it in a way that's respectful to them and their needs.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Thank you very much, Mr. Genuis. That's your time for this round.

We'll go straight to Mr. Ehsassi for six minutes, please.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for appearing before our committee today. I certainly recognize how incredibly busy you are on a number of different fronts so we're grateful that you made time to be with us.

Last week you were in New York at the United Nations for the appeals conference. Given what we have been witnessing over the course of the past week, as you can imagine Canadians are very much concerned about developments in Ukraine and they fully expect that we will be a large part of the coordinated response to the humanitarian disaster unfolding there.

Could you share with us what Canada is doing insofar as humanitarian assistance is concerned for Ukraine?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

What I want to state here is that, because of the tremendous relationships that we've had with the diaspora community, we have a good knowledge base of what is going on. This allows us to make sure that our humanitarian support gets to the right people. More importantly, we need to try to anticipate.

As I stated, we were one of the first nations, alongside actually only two nations, to provide humanitarian support through the United Nations early on, and other organizations, and to provide flexible funding so that if the situation changed they could adjust on the ground. That's exactly what's happening right now. We knew that the Canadian generosity was going to be there, so we have the matching funds and we have flexibility to do more.

The big appeal.... When I was at the UN I spoke with Martin Griffiths, who's in charge of OCHA, to discuss what the next steps were. We moved very quickly to announce our $100 million Canadian for support. What we are also doing is coordinating our support with the USAID. I had long discussions with administrator Samantha Power. She has sent a team, and so have we, to help coordinate our response but also to make sure that we coordinate our response with the EU who are actually leading the coordination piece there.

We know that there's a particular focus on Poland, but we also know that other nations are seeing different needs so we're trying to get that better sense and be as flexible as possible. In times of crisis what we want to do is to move the resources and the funds to the right places so that they can have the flexibility to respond very quickly on the ground.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Thank you very much for that.

As you have suggested, I suspect that you will remain very much focused on developments in the Ukraine. Would that be fair to say and are we, in all likelihood, to hear of more announcements to come as we attempt to address developments in Ukraine?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

We are monitoring the situation extremely closely. In the briefings that I had today, one from the intelligence side but also from our humanitarian side, I was briefed on the numbers of refugees who are going to different cities and we are monitoring exactly which cities they're going to. The UN are making adjustments as well. The Putin regime is making it extremely difficult for that work, so we are asking for humanitarian access and making sure it gets to the right areas.

It's been a daily adjustment. We want to anticipate the needs so that the funds can be ready and available to the agencies that provide it. Plus we also know there's tremendous generosity from Canadians and companies as well, and we're looking at ways we can galvanize that support.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Thank you.

You've been very articulate insofar as where the challenges arising from COVID are concerned and how various countries should step up their efforts. Given that you have been squarely focused on this issue and that Canada is assisting through multilateral fora, as well as on a bilateral basis, how do you think we compare as a country to other ones insofar as assistance to other countries is concerned?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Just imagine the complexity of the logistics around vaccinating the world. One thing I want to stress that we are taking very seriously from a Canadian perspective is that, rather than create a plan for a country, we want to be able to hear what their needs are. They have some tremendous abilities but we also know they have their challenges as well, so we want to figure out what their absorption capacity is and what those needs are.

In some countries, the vaccine is not the issue. It's actually getting the vaccine into arms. In some cases, we need to get the supply. We're coordinating our efforts with Gavi, USAID and many others to look at where we have existing programs where we can provide support and leverage it. We're looking at where we have the best knowledge and, from that, we listen to them and look at how we can best provide.

For us, the best method to provide vaccines is actually through COVAX, so that it can be a coordinated response to making sure that the vaccine arrives at the time when the country needs it. That's extremely important for making sure that we provide the right resources, moving forward.

Plus, we want to look at how we can reinforce and build the health systems within those countries as we provide the support for vaccine rollouts.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

I think I'm almost out of time.

Thank you, Minister.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Thank you very much, Mr. Ehsassi.

Thank you, Minister.

Mr. Bergeron, good afternoon. You have the floor for six minutes.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for being here. We really appreciate it. You are so likeable that we would have preferred to benefit from your presence for longer than a single hour. I guess that will have to wait for another time. As you said, we will have many other opportunities to discuss all these issues that are of concern for both sides. So we will take all these opportunities to discuss them and to make sure that we work together for the betterment of our fellow human beings all over the world. Thank you once again for joining us.

In your mandate letter, the following is stated:

Continue to help support Afghan citizens through humanitarian assistance and to work with our allies to protect democratic and human rights, including for women, girls and minorities.

As you must know, the fear of being prosecuted under the Criminal Code is one of the difficulties currently faced by Canadian organizations operating in Afghanistan. This is because the Afghan government is considered under Canadian law to be a terrorist organization.

On February 17, my colleague, Mr. Brunelle‑Duceppe, attempted to pass a motion in the House of Commons to remove this threat and thereby facilitate the work of our organizations on the ground. Unfortunately, this motion was defeated. It did not receive unanimous consent.

What do you think about this legitimate concern of non-governmental organizations, who need to be assured that they will not be prosecuted if they have to do business with a government that is classified as a terrorist government by Canada?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Mr. Chair, I want to thank the member for the question. I just want to say that I will always make myself available if members have any concerns. We can be more flexible there.

When it comes to Afghanistan, first of all, the situation is very concerning. The humanitarian crisis is real and we need to provide that support to the Afghan people themselves. This is one of the reasons we moved very quickly to move $56 million in support. We're looking at additional humanitarian support as well, working with the United Nations and other organizations. As we do this, we want to make sure we send a very strong message, consistently, that the rights of women are protected and that there is equitable access to health. We'll work with our allies for this.

Yes, we all have to follow the current law. I'm working with my colleagues on how we can move forward to address this issue. That's why we're working as quickly as possible on this. Keep in mind that the humanitarian aspect of the support will continue. We're supporting the Afghan people even through some of the challenges that the existing law poses when it comes to working in an environment where the Taliban, as a terrorist entity, is currently running the country.

At the same time, I want to stress that we're here to support the Afghan people while we hold the Taliban to account and send a very strong message that human rights need to be protected, especially for women.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Minister, I appreciate your answer, but the fact is that in Afghanistan, as in Ukraine, we currently do not have agents on the ground to monitor the delivery of humanitarian aid. The same is true for Tigray, by the way. So we have to rely very often on non-governmental organizations, but in the case of Afghanistan, there are some particular circumstances. Canadian humanitarian organizations are afraid to do their work on Afghan territory because they fear, on their return, that they will be prosecuted under the Criminal Code for having had to deal with local authorities that are considered illegal in Canada.

So I know that you are aware of this problem, but I can't tell you just how much we need to find a solution to support these organizations in delivering humanitarian aid on the ground in Afghanistan. We know how much the Afghans need this aid and we need to find a way to deliver it.

As I briefly mentioned, we are facing the same situation in Tigray and in Ukraine, where we don't have agents on the ground to ensure delivery. How do we track the aid that is given by Canada to ensure that it actually gets into the hands of the people who really need it?

Just before this meeting, I was giving an interview, and a journalist was telling me that, as a matter of fact, Canadian aid and military support were being channelled through Poland into Ukraine, but once across the border, we had no more control.

So what should we be doing, Minister, to ensure that the aid we provide actually ends up where it is needed?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Give a brief answer in the interest of time, Minister, please.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

We are seized with this, and this is why the anticipation of the situation was very important. We worked with the United Nations very early on looking at scenarios were this to happen. This is why at the United Nations, first of all, we stockpiled three months of supplies very early on, and now they are adjusting their support within Ukraine as to where those supply depots are.

The invasion and the atrocities are creating a problem because of the safety of the people; however, the United Nations has not left and they continue to work. This is why that coordination effort is very important, and we will continue to do that.