Foreign Affairs Committee on Feb. 14th, 2024

[Dr. Thomas Juneau]

I have not studied their training program extensively, so I can't speak to it in a systematic way, but I've worked with them quite a lot. I provide training on the Middle East, on international security issues and on other issues on a regular basis.

It's quite an elaborate system, but there's always the issue of whether they have enough resources to really provide the diplomats with the training they need, linguistic or otherwise. Any time there is an era of budget austerity, training is always the low-hanging fruit.

The other issue for me with training—and this is something I have thought a bit about on the intelligence side too—is the lack of accountability on training and the lack of performance measurement. We send people on training and then we tick the box. There is extremely limited effort to measure the outcome of training. I recognize that it's very difficult, but it's not being done.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

In South Korea, they write an exam and an essay before they take any job, just to apply. There is an outcome-based system there.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

We next go to MP Zuberi. You have four minutes.

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to start with Ms. Deif.

You raised consular issues in a region of the world that we don't often talk about in this committee and in the public space.

It brings me back to the cases of a number of Canadians years ago. These are cases like Maher Arar, Abdullah Almalki, Ahmad Abou-Elmaati, Muayyed Nureddin and Omar Khadr. All of these individuals were dealing with extremely heavy labels. There was a cloud over them.

At the same time, I think about human rights instruments, the charter values and the rule of law for all, even when it's challenging and difficult.

You raised the issue of those in northeast Syria. I'd like to have your opinion. You contrasted that with consular services in general, but I'd like to contrast that with those who have found themselves in analogous situations—people with heavy labels, as in northeast Syria.

Do you see a distinction between consular services for these individuals and others with heavy labels of the kind that those in northeast Syria are facing today?

[Farida Deif]

Thank you for the question.

I think what's clear is that there is very little political will on certain consular files. The government essentially wants to simply manage the file and not actually solve it. Where there is no political will on the part of this government to repatriate Canadians with suspected ISIS ties, especially the men, that message has trickled down to every layer of Global Affairs.

To Ms. Carvin's point, you have a very junior consular officer who was tasked with this very complex counterterrorism file, which involves Canadians who are in conditions that the UN has said amount to torture and inhumane and degrading treatment. It would of course require a much more complex set of skills.

Essentially, for a file that is tricky, you see a very slow response by Global Affairs, very little in the way of consular support and very little in the way of support to family members.

I spoke to a family member yesterday who lives in Ottawa and who has been desperate to even meet with her consular caseworker for years now. It's simply because the message given to Global Affairs and to the consular team is clearly that this is not a high-priority issue and that the Prime Minister is not keen to repatriate these Canadian nationals.

They're treated very differently from other cases, such as cases of evacuations. These same family members who have loved ones who have been detained in northeast Syria for seven years have seen this government put forward a global declaration on arbitrary detention. They have seen this government evacuate hundreds of nationals from many war zones around the world, yet their families are left behind. Their loved ones are left behind very intentionally.

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. Juneau, I'd like to ask you what we have learned about dealing with people who have a cloud over them, such as these individuals in northeast Syria. What have we learned in the last 20 years about how to deal with these individuals?

I think, for example, of what some countries in the Middle East have done to de-radicalize people. Do you have any commentary?

[Dr. Thomas Juneau]

I don't. I don't know if you do, but that's beyond my expertise. I'm sorry.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Be very brief if you do have a response, Ms. Carvin.

[Dr. Stephanie Carvin]

I would be happy to discuss that with you off-line. I think that Canada has been a fairly big pioneer in the space of countering radicalization. I do have concerns about some of the programs in Saudi Arabia and things like that. I'm not sure that they're the models we'd want to go for, but we should definitely be talking with those countries, and I would reiterate the call to repatriate these individuals and, if necessary, prosecute them through criminal law and not leave them in a black hole.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you.

Next we go to Mr. Bergeron.

You have two minutes.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you.

I was saying, Mr. Juneau, that I find this situation absolutely terrifying. The fact that the Senate committee decided to put forward this recommendation on French means that all is not well at Global Affairs Canada. If that department is one of the best examples out there, I dare not even imagine what is going on in other departments.

My next question is for Ms. Deif.

The Minister of Foreign Affairs has stated that Canada's foreign policy will be guided by two principles: sovereignty and pragmatic diplomacy. In her view, that means working with countries with “different perspectives” without ever compromising Canadian values or national interests.

My question is very simple. Isn't working with countries with “different perspectives”, including countries that blatantly violate human rights, without compromising Canadian values of respect for those rights, sort of like trying to square the circle?

What's your response to that?

[Farida Deif]

Yes, undoubtedly there are a certain number of countries that are grave violators of international human rights that continue to be very strong allies of Canada. It's interesting that prior to the case of the alleged extrajudicial execution on Canadian soil involving a Canadian Sikh man, we had been pleading with this government for years to scrutinize India's human rights record and to engage at the UN Human Rights Council around attacks against religious minorities in India, intimidation, harassment, extrajudicial killings, etc., but unfortunately that didn't come to fruition until this issue landed on our soil, which will often happen if we don't take preventive steps to address human rights violations—even those that are committed by our allies.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you.

We next go to MP McPherson. You have two minutes, please.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Two minutes is very short, so I'm going to ask two really hard questions and then wish you luck.

The first question is about our arms sales and what it says about our diplomatic relationships with other countries when we prioritize arms to Turkey, Israel, India and Saudi Arabia versus looking at our responsibilities under the ATT, the Arms Trade Treaty, and human rights requirements.

I would also love some insight from you as experts on where Canada is diplomatically with regard to other challenges we see in the Middle East, such as the Houthis in Iran.

Ms. Deif, I'll start with you.

[Farida Deif]

It was very welcome that you pushed forward a motion that got accepted around arms sales to Israel, and I think it's incredibly important to constantly assess risks to have an arms control regime that's rooted in human rights and in risks.

Essentially the ICJ decision on plausible genocide underscores the need for Canada to review arms sales to Israel to ensure that they're suspended—since there's impunity for grave crimes that are being committed—and that should be the case across the board.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Go ahead, Professor Juneau.

[Dr. Thomas Juneau]

The case of Canada's resumption of weapons sales to Turkey, for me, is a good example of how foreign policy is about balancing competing priorities. Human rights are one of them and should be one of them, but they are not the only consideration. One of Canada's most important foreign policy interests is our standing within a functioning NATO, and NATO enlargement to me is consistent with that. As long as Turkey was withholding approval of Sweden's entry into NATO, I was completely in favour of suspending these sales as part of these negotiations. My understanding is that for a number of allies, including the U.S. and us and perhaps others, resuming these weapons sales was a condition after—

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Is that even if it breaks our international or Canadian law around the ATT?

[Dr. Thomas Juneau]

I'm not an expert on the ATT, so I'm not in a position to make that specific judgment.

From a foreign policy perspective, for me it made sense. It's unpalatable and it's not fun, but in the world we're in today, a functioning NATO—which is under threat, including from within—is an overriding interest for us.

It's not nice, but to me that was ultimately the right call.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you.

We next go to Mr. Aboultaif. You have four minutes.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

Thanks, Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses.

Dr. Jennifer Welsh, who is the director of the Centre for International Peace and Security at McGill, said to this committee that “Canadians are living in an international system that is less hospitable to our interests and values”.

The question is, have we left the camp, were we left behind or have we done something wrong to be living in an international system that is less hospitable to our values and our interests?

[Dr. Stephanie Carvin]

To be honest, I think we have gotten a bit lazy. It's not so much that we don't care, but....

It's like a house. You move into your house and you enjoy the house, but you have to occasionally replace the windows, redo the roof and things like this. I think we have become lazy, assuming that this infrastructure would always be there and that we could always be a part of it. We need to have capacity in our Global Affairs department to ensure that renewal can consistently take place.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

Dr. Juneau, would you care to comment on this, please?

[Dr. Thomas Juneau]

I would agree with how Professor Carvin just phrased it. I think that living under the U.S. defence and security umbrella for decades has made us dilettantes in foreign policy. It has been easy. We have neglected foreign policy. We have made bad decisions on foreign policy and have not paid a price for decades. That's over.