Foreign Affairs Committee on March 20th, 2024

[H.E. Yuliya Kovaliv]

Indeed, ammunition is now one of the pressing things. Among all the NATO members and all members of the Ramstein group, which held its 20th meeting just yesterday, the question of coordinating efforts to supply ammunition to Ukraine is of high importance. We value the recent announcement by Minister Blair about further funding to supply the artillery shells to Ukraine.

It's not only artillery shells, but missiles for air defence, the missiles you mentioned. The Ukrainian armed forces need them, and they can use them.

The other thing we are discussing with all of our partners is trying to use even the equipment that is in the process of being decommissioned. We don't have much choice, but I think we've already demonstrated over these last two years that we can use the technology and we can use the dedication of our engineers to make it work for the good cause.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

You mentioned 155-millimetre shells. Canada produces those shells, but production is essentially flat since before the war began. I believe some 3,000 shells a day are being produced. How many shells a day is Ukraine firing to defend its territory from Russia?

[H.E. Yuliya Kovaliv]

It would be good if we had at least 7,000 to 8,000 per day. That would make a huge difference.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

The chief of the defence staff in Canada testified in front of the committee a number of months ago that shell production has remained flat and that the Government of Canada has not yet increased shell production in order not only to resupply our armed forces but to provide ammunition for Ukraine's armed forces.

If Ukraine is firing roughly 6,000 to 7,000 shells a day, by extrapolation from your opening remarks, I take that to mean Russia is firing somewhere in the range of 36,000 to 50,000 shells in the opposite direction every day, so the need is great, and the need to increase 155-millimetre shell production is urgent. Would you agree with that statement?

[H.E. Yuliya Kovaliv]

Indeed. Ammunition production and the ramping up of that production are being discussed among all the allies. We are also putting in the effort to build up production, including of ammunition, in Ukraine. As you may be aware, the Czech Republic is taking on the leadership role to try to find whatever is possible and coordinate the efforts to supply ammunition. The European Union itself made a decision to supply ammunition to Ukraine and committed the money.

Now it's up to the defence industry to speed up investment and rapidly increase production. It's also, I believe, up to governments and our partners to make this happen and to support the industries in this rapid increase of production of ammunition.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

I have one very quick question.

The Canadian Armed Forces have surplus light armoured vehicles. Do you want those surplus light armoured vehicles?

[H.E. Yuliya Kovaliv]

It depends on what type of vehicle. There are different types. This is more of a discussion on the precise model.

We value the armoured vehicles supplied to Ukraine that have all been produced here in Canada. I recently visited the facilities where they are produced. We are really grateful to the Canadians who work in this facility and help get those vehicles to Ukraine.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you.

We'll next go to Dr. Fry.

Dr. Fry, you have five minutes.

[Hedy Fry, Liberal, Vancouver Centre, BC]

Thank you very much, Chair.

Welcome, Ambassador.

I head the Canadian delegation to the OSCE PA. At every single meeting and quite often in emails, I hear Ukrainian Rada parliamentarians updating us on what is going on in Ukraine. Because of this, I have a concern that we are going to allow this war to go on and on. It will soon become like the Vietnam War—a background noise that nobody is paying attention to. We all know how important Ukraine's victory is to the rest of the world and to democracy.

I hate to call it a war. It's an act of violent aggression by Russia, not a war. Ukraine didn't want to participate in it. I think we need to support Ukraine.

Under that, I echo what my colleague Mr. Chong was asking. Is Ukraine being given every opportunity it can to defend itself properly? I know the European Union gave 50 billion euros recently to Ukraine. However, everyone is still waiting for the $60 billion from the United States to come forward. Is that hampering Ukraine and its ability to defend itself?

That's my first question. I'm going to give you a second question. Then you can answer them all together.

My second question is about the fact that so many Ukrainian men have left Ukraine. I know there is a debate in the Rada right now on whether or not they should stop refugees and change the age of eligibility to fight in the war. Does Ukraine—men and women included—have enough armed forces of their own being trained by Canadians and others? Is that hampering their efforts?

The third thing I want to ask is about what the Rada is saying: Should they stop refugees from leaving Ukraine? I don't know. That's a decision being discussed at the Rada. What's your opinion on that?

Finally, I know sanctions are not necessarily working. I know there's a trade route that goes through Kazakhstan into Russia. That negates some of the sanctions the rest of the countries are doing. How does it impact Ukrainians' ability to win this war if sanctions are not working and Russia continues to do this with impunity?

[H.E. Yuliya Kovaliv]

Thank you for all of those questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Ambassador, you have two and a half minutes to answer those questions.

[H.E. Yuliya Kovaliv]

Just to start with, I think we all understand that the strategy of helping Ukraine one drop at a time no longer works.

You saw the news when the Ukrainian forces made a decision to withdraw from Avdiivka, which does not give Russia any gains except for PR for the so-called—I don't know what to call it—elections there. In reality, that was because of a lack of ammunition. That's also one of the pressing needs if we are talking about new recruits to the Ukrainian army. There are a lot of men who have already been fighting for 24 months, and in order to prepare, equip and train new people, there need to be resources and capacity.

Today, the speed of not only decision-making but the implementation of those decisions to specifically supply Ukraine military support is so needed. How the world continues with military support will define the months ahead.

If you look at what's happening with the Russian navy fleet, particularly those situated in occupied Crimea, 33% has already been destroyed. Also, it's not only the war on the ground. As I mentioned about the fighter jets, there's also a lot of worry about technology. Ukrainians are also developing their own technology.

The agreement that Ukraine and Canada signed is about co-operation in the defence industries and in defence technologies, which make both of our countries stronger, because we can be stronger when we share our know-how and when we share our components—but not share them with Russia.

We always and very quickly inform our partners when we find spare parts produced in western countries in Russian weapons. There are also Canadian companies that produce spare parts that we have found in Russian weapons. Unfortunately, it's happening. We've seen it for two years. During the first year, there was some argument that this was a big stock. Over 24 months, Russia has continued to produce, and the spare parts continue to be there.

We believe that the circumvention of sanctions and the ease of dealing with the circumvention of sanctions are in our common interest. It's not only what Russia is fighting in Ukraine. For Canada, it's also that everybody is watching as Russia is building its military presence in the Arctic. Russia can't produce all of this defence equipment it is putting there without the best in spare parts.

We see them as we are finding them in debris. There needs to be some responsibility by companies that are making them. There needs to be a proper investigation of how they turned up in Russia and of what measures, both from the governments and from the companies themselves, need to be taken to avoid them.

[Hedy Fry, Liberal, Vancouver Centre, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

There were a lot of questions. Thank you, Madam Ambassador.

We next go to Mr. Bergeron.

You have five minutes, sir.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for being here today, Your Excellency.

Yesterday afternoon, in Ottawa, the Canada-Ukraine Friendship Group received Mr. Pierre Heilbronn, President Macron's Special Envoy for Ukraine's Relief and Reconstruction. Of course, there was discussion of the efforts currently being made to rebuild much of Ukraine's infrastructure, particularly in the areas that are not being as intensively bombed by Russia.

In your opening remarks, you stressed the importance of seizing Russian assets in order to help with reconstruction. Canada has moved quickly to enact legislation that enables us to seize Russian assets. In December 2022, the Minister of Foreign Affairs explained that she was considering making “a court application to forfeit the asset permanently to the Crown” with a view to eventually handing them over to Ukraine.

It's now been over a year.

What has the Canadian government told you about its intention to confiscate Russian assets, including those of oligarch Roman Abramovich, to help rebuild Ukraine?

[H.E. Yuliya Kovaliv]

Indeed, the rebuilding has already started.

When we were with Minister Joly visiting Chernihiv—which is an hour-and-a-half drive from Kyiv—and the communities that were occupied, we crossed a big, four-lane bridge that didn't exist 15 months ago. It was blown up and then quickly rebuilt to provide the ability for people to come and go and for goods to flow between the cities. The government is putting a lot of effort into trying to provide basic needs, especially for those communities that have been liberated.

One of the important things in the rebuilding effort is demining, and I would like to thank you, Canada, for your robust support for our demining efforts. Ukraine is, today, one of the top countries in terms of land that has been contaminated by land mines.

In terms of the seizure of Russian assets, Russian sovereign assets—which is frozen investment capital—are worth more than $300 billion. That's an important instrument for signalling to Russia the seriousness of the western allies' support for Ukraine's victory. It's also morally right to do and legally right to do. We're stressing the importance of this decision. The same goes for Russian oligarchs.

That's probably about the only update I can give because that's a legal process. I think Global Affairs Canada would probably be better placed to give the details.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

I've said from day one that our first mistake was signalling to Vladimir Putin early on that the west would not get involved on the ground. As far as I am concerned, that was tantamount to giving President Putin carte blanche to do pretty much what he wanted.

However, on February 26, in the wake of a conference that brought together representatives from 25 countries to take stock of the situation in Ukraine, French President Emmanuel Macron declared that he was not ruling out sending troops to Ukraine. Initially, it was thought that this was the result of the discussions that had taken place during the day, but we soon realized that many countries had dissociated themselves from this.

Do you think President Macron was trying to create some ambiguity in order to curb Vladimir Putin's ambitions?

[H.E. Yuliya Kovaliv]

I'll emphasize that Ukraine has the will and the courage of its people and of those who are now on the front line to fight. The thing we are missing is enough military support to equip them and enough air defence to protect civilians and the cities from not only Russian but also now North Korean ballistic missiles, hypersonic missiles and drones.

We can do our work, as we demonstrated both within the first months of the full-scale invasion and with what we did in the Black Sea with the Russian fleet and so on. However, the crucial thing is the steady support for and supply of weapons to Ukraine. It's also in the interests of all of the NATO alliance, because Ukraine is in the middle. Russia is ambitious far beyond the Ukrainian borders and the NATO alliance.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

I have a point of order.

Mr. Chair, the bells are going, and normally the rules bind the chair to suspend the meeting for us to vote. I believe if you seek it, you will find unanimous consent for the committee to continue to meet and hear from the ambassador; for the chair to suspend the meeting when the 30-minute bells are finished, at approximately 10 minutes after 6 p.m.; for the committee to come out of suspension once members have voted on their electronic apps; and for the committee to continue the meeting at that point.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Is there unanimous consent?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Excellent.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

We now go to Madam McPherson.

You have five minutes.