Government Operations Committee on June 15th, 2006

[Maria Barrados]

Yes, I expect a package of reports to come that would be our annual report, which gives the concerns of the commission. Some of our concerns are obvious and already reflected in this committee—the state of readiness and the types of changes we have to make, concerns about non-partisanship. We raise those and put our findings together. We also give an overview of what is happening in the public service in terms of hiring and the size of the public service. Then we expect these three audits on EX staffing, on readiness, and on the student program.

We are not tabling the statistical studies to Parliament. We will be releasing them on a routine basis. I'm happy to talk about them, but this is going to be a routine thing that we release.

That will be the package we have coming in October.

As to the process by which we release the annual reports, we do a little more than we did in these two special reports. When we send those, they get tabled, we release them, and there's some information around them. But usually for the annual report and that package, we do the press conference. We offer to brief this committee before, if they would like, or have a meeting on the day. I'd be talking to your chair to see what the possibilities are for that.

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Do you oversee or examine the compensation structure of public service workers?

[Maria Barrados]

Yes and no. Strictly, we're not responsible for compensation. But once we started looking at promotions and movement of people, we found that we have to look at classifications, which then leads you to compensation. Because some of the problems you're seeing in staffing are actually in moving people, then reclassifying and moving them again. These then become problems. So we do look at that.

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Just to elaborate, what I'm trying to say is do we examine the compensation in relevance to that classification--in generic terms, not for individuals.

[Maria Barrados]

No, that's the responsibility of the employer.

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

I'm hearing there's tough competition, that the public service, especially at the executive level, faces tough competition from the private sector. One of the reasons is perhaps because some of the compensation is not as competitive as the private sector's. I was wondering if this is something you would even look at.

[Maria Barrados]

We would not look at that. But being one of those people who is compensated that way, I obviously have some interest.

Most of the studies I have seen show that at entry into the public service in the more junior levels it's more than competitive, and often more generous than the private sector. As you go up it is less competitive. But what we haven't done a good job of is looking at the whole compensation package, because there are benefits in the public service you don't get in the private sector. So the employee benefits like sickness, like the pension, like the kind of leave, that has to be looked at as a package. Still, the higher up you go, the less competitive they are, even when you put that in the package.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Mr. Goldring.

[Peter Goldring, Conservative, Edmonton East, AB]

Thank you for appearing here today.

You mention here in the report that the military police complaints commission comes under your authority. Does your authority also extend to the RCMP public complaints commission as far as staffing requirements are concerned when they have specific projects that are coming up for investigation and they're hiring staff to conduct the investigation?

[Maria Barrados]

Yes, we are also responsible for the RCMP public complaints commission--they've changed their name, and I tend to confuse the name. We're responsible for them. We did an audit on them, and we were not very happy with their staffing practices either.

[Peter Goldring, Conservative, Edmonton East, AB]

That leads me directly to your comments about the impartiality in staffing and how that manifests itself. In other words, what types of concerns do you have in how they hire and bring their staff in? There's a general feeling, even at the lower entry-level positions in the public service, that they're very difficult. The general public conception is that many of the jobs go to friends, go to other people who have priorities ahead of them on any type of a possibility to even be considered. These might be political, they might be friends, they might be family, they might be many other things. What did you find in your investigation? Was there a common thread, or what types of impartiality examples were there?

[Maria Barrados]

Are you talking about any one of the specifics, or are you talking in general?

[Peter Goldring, Conservative, Edmonton East, AB]

I suppose the RCMP public complaints commission, and as well, as you did mention it, the Canadian Space Agency.

[Maria Barrados]

What we're finding is that in those two cases we didn't find political influence. That's an important consideration here, which we didn't find. That's not to say it doesn't exist, but we didn't find it. What we found was a lot of hand-picking people and saying, “We're going to use the system and get you into that job.” That's where we get very worried. There was a using of the system to manipulate the system to get pre-chosen people into the jobs.

So we're very concerned about that. That's not what we expect, because we have the system that says fairness, access, and transparency.

There are a couple of other things that go on in the public service. One is that we do have a priority system, and we expect it to be respected. If you get laid off or you're on leave without pay as a public servant, you have a priority for a position. The expectation is that you go to those people first, so you expect that to function.

One of the areas I have been concerned about, and continue to be concerned about, is the movement from casual employment in the public service into full-time, and the movement we see from part-time to full-time. What we see going on is people moving in and learning the job. So you come in as a casual, you have the opportunity to learn the job, then you have a competition and--surprise--this person knows all about the job. That's not really very fair, because not everyone's in a position where they want to take casual employment to learn the job to get into a permanent job. So some of those moves are really not very good. You can have small numbers of them, but you don't want large numbers of them.

That's why I've been concerned about the speed it takes to do things, how efficient we are, and how flexible we are, because what you want is a truly competitive process in which you're not relying on entry through the casual and part-time route. This is how you hear the comment that somebody got a job because they knew somebody. It wasn't that they were all of a sudden put into a permanent job; it was because they were given the opportunity to work as a casual to learn the job and then they would compete.

[Peter Goldring, Conservative, Edmonton East, AB]

Do I still have a little time?

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

You have 30 seconds.

[Peter Goldring, Conservative, Edmonton East, AB]

In your information kit it says, regarding candidacy for elections, if elected to federal or provincial office, “public servants will cease to be federal employees”, but if elected municipally, they “may cease”. It sounds as though it's very discretionary. What types of circumstances might those be?

[Maria Barrados]

It is discretionary; it's left to the commission. I haven't talked about all of that in my list of responsibilities, but what was added in the new legislation was the responsibility for non-partisanship, specific direction in the legislation about public servants being candidates, and the discretion on the “may” for the municipal side.

You have some very small municipal councils where it's a small town, and those kinds of people may be very important in that small town. But it doesn't affect their ability to do their job, any views of partisanship for the job, and much of their time.

But when you look at being a councillor for a city like Ottawa or Toronto, it's hard to envision how those people could be doing those jobs full-time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Ms. Thibault.

[Louise Thibault, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I do not want to be defending managers, but earlier I said that there's obviously a lack of financial planning. I believe that it is because of this lack of financial planning that some people were hired temporarily or casually, at least this was the case in the past. There's uncertainty surrounding how long funds will last. Given the fact that programs and initiatives had to be set up, people were hired on a part-time basis in the hope that later they could be hired permanently through a competition. I'm not defending managers, but I believe that there must be, first and foremost, some sensible financial planning and integration.

You carried out a statistical study on the length of the staffing process within the public service, which was reported to us in May 2006. According to a survey conducted on the appointment process, between January 2000 and December 2003, the average length of a competition for a permanent position was 22.8 weeks and the median duration was 17.3 weeks. It seems to me that the average time it took to staff a permanent position was rather long.

Ms. Barrados, has progress been made since then? Where are we now in terms of execution time?

[Maria Barrados]

For a process involving only five people, on average, it takes half the time. In my opinion, it is too long. That is an average. Sometimes it takes less time, and sometimes it takes more time. We have to carry out an evaluation on processes that took place before the act was amended, and I intend to re-evaluate when the new act comes into force, in order to determine the extent to which we have made progress, as well as determine the type of progress accomplished.

[Louise Thibault, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

You are an auditor by profession so I'm sure you'll take into account all the staffing operations pushed through extremely quickly without consideration for the principle of merit. I could staff a position very quickly by asking my cousin to start work tomorrow on the basis that I think he has the necessary qualifications. That skews the data, but still needs to be considered as records in speed and extreme slowness are sure to be set.

Ms. Barrados, the Public Service Commission apparently has $6 million in revenue. Can you tell me the nature of this revenue and where it comes from?

Earlier, I was a little sarcastic, but does the Public Service Commission make money by recovering some of its costs?

[Maria Barrados]

This is a process we are currently reviewing.

Mr. Lemaire may be able to give you further information on the $6 million amount.

[Donald Lemaire]

The revenue is tied to the Personnel Psychology Centre's work, especially in administering simulation tests for the recruitment of managers, etc., and it is in addition to the funding we receive under a parliamentary appropriation for language and other tests.

As part of their large-volume recruitment strategy, departments are looking for tests they can use to screen candidates. There is cost recovery associated with those activities particularly. For example, when departments want to recruit CR-level employees, and they receive between 5,000 and 10,000 applications, they are often looking for the right test they can get candidates to sit for. This may include writing or comprehension tests, for example. And then there are tests for managers at various levels. This is why we are developing specific tests and testing methods for various departments. It's at that point that we recover our costs.

So, this revenue primarily comes from the Personnel Psychology Centre.

[Louise Thibault, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Is that the only area in which you recover your expenses?