Government Operations Committee on June 20th, 2006

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

On Mr. Warkentin's amendment, Monsieur Proulx.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

To start with, I think the other members of the committee should realize that the original wording of this motion would penalize all of the country except Ottawa and Gatineau. What in essence this says is that all government jobs should be divided between Ottawa and Gatineau at the rate of 75-25.

But let me address the amendment that Mr. Warkentin has suggested. The policy of the government talks of 75-25 in terms of jobs, not real estate properties. The reason behind that is that we now have--as a matter of fact, it's in Mr. Nadeau's riding--a huge building. I couldn't tell you how many square feet, but it's huge. It used to be a mega-Zellers centre. It was vacated by Zellers and purchased by the Government of Canada.

I was saying jokingly the other day at committee, when we had the pleasure of having the Minister of Public Works in front of us, that this particular building, although it's huge in square footage, has, I think, something like three or four jobs there.

So the policy was in regard to jobs.

Therefore, I think we need to continue focusing this policy on sharing jobs, not on square footage, because we could end up with cavernous warehouses that do not contribute in any way to the financial or economy development of a region.

I've given the Clerk the text of a proposed amendment to Ms. Thibault's motion which clarifies the meaning of the 75:25 policy. Obviously, Ms. Thibault is not from the National Capital Region and I think that she, in good faith...

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Before you go any further with your amendment, we need to resolve Mr. Warkentin's amendment.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

All right.

Regarding Mr. Warkentin's amendment, the important thing is that we focus on jobs, not on square footage.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Mr. Kramp.

[Daryl Kramp, Conservative, Prince Edward—Hastings, ON]

Referring to Mr. Warkentin's friendly amendment, the only area I have difficulty with, and it was discussed earlier with the minister today, is with the reference to crown corporations. These are at arm's length, and they're generally out of the control of government, responsible to their own administration board of directors. I have no problem with referring to the federal public service, government agencies, etc., but I don't think we can make any reference or include crown corporations in that, simply because the government does not have enough effective control of those organizations. They're too far at arm's length to include them in this amendment. They should be omitted.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

This amendment talks only of real estate.

[Daryl Kramp, Conservative, Prince Edward—Hastings, ON]

I realize that, but crown corporations also control real estate. The governments don't make a lot of the decisions for these crown corporations. They make their own decisions. I do believe they should be excluded.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Mr. Warkentin.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

I would like to follow up on Mr. Proulx's comments.

The understanding, I guess, was that there would be the 75-25 allocation between Gatineau and the other side of the river, the Quebec and the Gatineau side. So it wouldn't preclude there being civil servants or jobs across the country, but we're just talking in terms of dividing what is in this region--that 75% would be in Ottawa and 25% would be across the river. So if there are 100 square metres of property, then 25% would be on the other side, and 75% would be on this side. I guess we're talking about the allocation of property in the capital region.

In terms of the real estate, I just think it's important. Mr. Kramp talked about the fact that we can't dictate where crown corporations locate their jobs, but I think we can probably dictate where there is purchased real estate by the federal government. We certainly want to ensure that we have the facilities available for our crown corporations and our crown-run agencies to have real estate over there. Because we're moving to a certain number of people per square metre, there are requirements that would therefore dictate how many jobs we would have over there, simply as a result of how many square metres we have of property. Certainly, jobs would follow the real estate.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Mr. Proulx.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

I appreciate the comments of Mr. Warkentin in regard to the jobs being in the national capital region. However, I'm sure that Mr. Warkentin will accept with me that if we are to mean something in such a motion, we should make sure that it is in writing in that particular motion. In other words, if we're talking about the feathers of the ducks, let's mention that they're not only the feathers, but also the feathers of those particular ducks.

This particular motion, as originally tabled, is incomplete. Somebody tried to be opportunistic and take a ball that has already been thrown in the air. I think this motion should be corrected much more than that, but I will come to that when I table my particular amendment after yours.

In regard to your amendment, if we keep jobs in there, I have no problem in making a strict rule of signing competitive leases as you suggested.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Ms. Thibault, on Mr. Warkentin's motion.

[Louise Thibault, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

The intent was to target jobs. One of the measures mentioned was to seek out competitive leases. Moving public servants into adequate offices requires space. We'll talk about this later, but I've taken note of Mr. Proulx's comments and I'm prepared to go along with his amendment. I have no wish to adopt a partisan position. I'm thinking about our federal employees in the National Capital Region and I'd like us to work together this morning to resolve the problem as quickly as possible.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

I didn't hear whether they're in support of his amendments.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

If there are no more speakers, I'll call the vote on the amendment.

Mr. Wallace.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

I think we can have a bit of a discussion.

I think there is consensus of sorts around the table, and if we get the wording right today, great. If we can't, I'm satisfied to turn it over until Thursday.

I'd like to know, if possible, whether the Bloc is supporting my colleague's amendment or not. I didn't get that answer.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Mr. Nadeau.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

I'd like you to call the vote, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Not unless there are no further speakers to the motion.

Are there no other speakers?

We'll call the vote on your amendment.

(Amendment agreed to) [see Minutes of Proceedings]

It passes.

[An hon. member]

Where did you count six?

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Madam Nash supported their amendment.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

You voted in favour of that?

Okay.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Mr. Proulx.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair. Earlier, I submitted my amendment to the Clerk in both French and English.