Government Operations Committee on June 20th, 2006

[Raymond Bonin, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

No, they didn't. They didn't call an inquiry. Mr. Mulroney didn't call an inquiry.

My question is simple. If you don't want to answer it, we'll move on.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Sir, you get to ask the questions, and I get to respond.

[Raymond Bonin, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Madam Chair, we can move on to the next questioner.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

No, I want to respond. You can't make a malicious comment, sir.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Perhaps you should allow him to say something.

[Raymond Bonin, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

That wasn't the question. I didn't open the door for you to attack Gomery or anybody else.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

You made a malicious comment, sir.

[Raymond Bonin, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

No, I did not. I said a fact about page 343 of the book On the Take. That's all I did. I quoted that book. So don't change it, as you do all the time. That's why I want you to stick to the question. You always deviate so that people address the answer. The question is simple.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I do know that the Liberal government had to pay Brian Mulroney $2.1 million and apologize to him for malicious actions.

[Raymond Bonin, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

How do you deal with political activity by senior bureaucrats?

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Order. That's enough--on all sides.

I think we should go on to another question.

Monsieur Sauvageau.

[Benoît Sauvageau, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Am I up now, or are we dealing with a point of order?

Before I begin, I'd just like to point out that it's rather difficult for the interpreters to do their job when two people are talking at the same time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

You're quite right.

[Benoît Sauvageau, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Good morning, Mr. Baird. Thank you for joining us and thank you for your brief presentation, and for the opportunity to ask you some questions.

I'll get right to my first one. In a few moments, we will be debating Bill C-2 in the House. Since this is the Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates, if Bill C-2 is adopted, what is it going to cost us to enforce the legislation?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Accountability is genuinely priceless. I think there will be costs. For Bill C-2, Mr. Flaherty has some funds in his budget. I'm cautious about saying how much we have budgeted for each and every element because we're going to try to contain it to an absolute minimum. There is a price for accountability. It has been public that we had allocated in the budget.... The previous government had allocated $16 million for strengthening the internal audit function. I think there's virtually unanimous agreement that this is a good thing. There will be an additional amount of some $50 million. Hopefully we can get it to less; it might be a bit more, but we're going to work to ensure that it's as little as possible.

If we can reduce things such as the sponsorship scandal, the HRDC scandal, and the lack of accountability in the gun control program, I think it would be a huge savings to taxpayers in the short term--not even the long term.

[Benoît Sauvageau, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Thank you.

According to the Library of Parliament backgrounder distributed to committee members, the Honourable Minister of Finance, Mr. Flaherty, is also the Vice-President of the Treasury Board. Is that correct?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Correct.

[Benoît Sauvageau, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

What new responsibilities will the Vice-President of the Treasury Board have? The former Vice-President of the TB, Paul Martin, maintained that he didn't have any responsibilities, that a vice-president merely attended meetings and drank coffee.

Should a problem arise, will the new Vice-President be in some way held accountable?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

As President of the Treasury Board, I am the responsible minister. A total of six ministers serve on the Treasury Board.

My experience as a member of Treasury Board at another level of government likely led me to make this suggestion. The Minister of Finance, whose job is one of the most important in government in terms of responsibility, didn't always have time to attend TB meetings. However, the current minister manages to attend meetings far more often than did his predecessor. He's already attended two or three meetings. Occasionally, the minister submits a written notice to the committee.

He is the vice-chair of Treasury Board as a cabinet committee; he is not vice-chair of the secretariat, or the deputy minister responsible. That's an important distinction. Each cabinet committee--Treasury Board is one--has a chair and a vice-chair. He is the vice-chair.

I think there's a strong engagement, personally, between the Minister of Finance and me. There is a strong engagement between our staff. There's a strong engagement between our officials. I think Minister Flaherty has said publicly that there certainly will be strong collaborations. I think that has been quoted in the media.

[Benoît Sauvageau, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Madam Chair, I see that the new President of the Treasury Board has been quick to learn an old trick. He provides lengthy answers so that there is less time remaining for other questions. I mean no disrespect, but I'm familiar with that tactic. I'll ask you some brief questions and I'd appreciate brief answers from you as well. I don't doubt that he is making a positive and constructive contribution. However, I'd like to move on to other matters.

Is the Vice-President of the Treasury Board accountable in some way, yes or no?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

You would have no more than the accountability mechanisms the vice-chair of the operations committee would have. You would act as a vice-chair of the meeting. You wouldn't have the responsibilities of the Treasury Board.

[Benoît Sauvageau, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

A document in which leased space is discussed notes that there are 450,000 feet of surplus office space in relation to the overall leased office space available. Is this a fairly accurate assessment of the situation?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I'm prepared to seek advice from our PWGSC colleagues, since Treasury Board is not directly responsible for leases.

[Benoît Sauvageau, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

However, you are responsible for controlling the purse strings. According to a PWGSC document, there are 450,000 surplus feet of space. If the total budget for office leasing is $3 billion per year and we apply the rule of three, it would mean that we're overpaying to the tune of $210 million per year. You may not be responsible for leasing operations, but you are the one paying the rent.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

No, this falls under the authority of Public Works and Government Services Canada. Consequently, these operations are the responsibility of Minister Fortier.