Government Operations Committee on June 20th, 2006

[Benoît Sauvageau, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

You control or audit accounts. How much longer will you agree to pay $210 million per year for 450,000 surplus feet of leased office space?

If you agree, as we do, that this situation is unacceptable, what do you intend to do about it, and when?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I think this is a file that Public Works and Government Services will be seized of. Even in the national capital region, there were two significant scandals that were exposed by the now parliamentary secretary to Treasury Board. There was the office space connected with a member of the other place on the Quebec side, and then there was the office space that's been sitting vacant at the corner of Baseline and Merivale Roads. Obviously that's unacceptable. We want to ensure that taxpayers get value for their money. We will look at how we can expeditiously address the value for money. At this level, that will be addressed by Public Works.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Thank you very much.

I'm going to go to Mr. Van Kesteren.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'm not a permanent member of this committee. I have had the privilege of coming here a few times.

I thank you, Minister, for coming. It's a real privilege to listen to you.

I want to talk about the estimates. I'm a new member, as Mr. Wallace is. I'm also a member of the industry, science, and technology committee, and being a new member, I actually read my manual. And I stumbled across, in the science section--I'll read it:

Space Science and Exploration.

The program activity objective is to better understand the Solar System and the Universe; to seek extraterrestrial habitats for life; and to prepare for a permanent human presence on other planets.

Then I went over to the estimates side, and I noted that $1.5 billion was being spent.

Sir, have you had the opportunity to look at this? If you did, and this is true, could you put an end to this lunacy?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I've never quite inherited a job like this one. I'll say that it's much better to come into government as a minister than to wait four years, as I did the last time I did this, when you had to carry the other baggage.

This is, by and large, the estimate of the Canadian Space Agency. You did raise this issue with them. We have certainly put in inquiries through the Department of Industry. There have been problems at the Canadian Space Agency, which we're concerned about. The public service commissioner actually had to take away their delegated authority to hire staff.

Who was the previous president? Monsieur Garneau, oui, candidat libéral. So we're obviously concerned with that. I think it's been recently given back; the public service commissioner has had the strength to return that authority. But we are looking at those concerns that you raised. I think that looking for E.T. to call home shouldn't be a priority for public spending.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Thank you.

I want to ask you one question. What about Service Canada? Is that an ongoing push? What is happening with that?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Yes, it is an ongoing....

I have to say I'm always very skeptical of big projects and their success. I think that in the private sector they have a huge number of problems with big projects, particularly involving technology. It's particularly acute in government because there is greater scrutiny than there is at a private sector firm.

I have had a number of briefings at Service Canada, as has the board. I can tell you that while it is not perfect, I have been surprised at its capacity. It's much stronger than I might have anticipated. But it's one we're looking more closely at. There's a huge capacity there for us to get more services directly to Canadians in their home communities, particularly in smaller cities and small towns. We're looking at our capacity. They're also co-locating them with provincial and municipal governments, which is helpful.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

I'm concerned, obviously, because so far in my area, I haven't seen better services. Actually, I haven't seen much of anything but a telephone with a 1-800 number. I've been a skeptic about this for a while now, and it's nothing new for people around the table to hear me speak like this. I am concerned that in the regions of the country it will become just a 1-800 number with very little service, purporting to deliver a program of doing passports, but it doesn't do passports. It just ships them on, and there's no capacity to get a passport in an emergency. I'm extremely concerned that we're not necessarily going to get better service, although it may look like that on paper.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I'll confide in you, I'm always skeptical of these large projects. I can say at my initial briefings, both at Treasury Board and outside Treasury Board, I have been more surprised than I anticipated. Passports are a huge security issue the previous government confronted. We have to confront that as well.

There are two offices in Ottawa. We have one at our city hall, which is co-located. This was done by the previous government, so I'll give them some credit. It was co-located with the province and the municipality. There's also one in the west end, in my constituency, that seems to be doing a good job, particularly with income security programs. It's interesting they chose the income security programs, because those are by and large among the better service delivery models in Canada. Having dealt with various family members as seniors or veterans, I know there's a pretty high level of satisfaction with our public servants. They've done a pretty good job over the last 20 or 30 years on this, so it's obviously pretty easy to do it through Service Canada.

The real challenge will come, as you've just mentioned, and the passport question is certainly one that's before us, particularly in small cities and in rural Canada, and especially now that we're getting so many more passport applications than we did even five years ago. That will only get more acute, not less so. The passport capability is one of the missing links.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Yes, because in northeastern Ontario there is not one passport office. The closest is in Toronto or in Ottawa, and there's a vast, vast land and the fact that we don't have access to any kind of emergency service.... You know, people are people. They will forget their passports are running out and people lose their holidays because there is no mechanism to help them out. They have to travel to Toronto or travel to Ottawa, whether they live in Moosonee, Timmins, Kirkland Lake, North Bay, Sault Ste. Marie, all that region.

I bring this up because Service Canada was going to do passports, which they can't. So I thank you, and I hope you'll keep pushing them, as I will.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I'll pass it on to my colleague.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Please do. Thank you very much.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Thank you.

Thank you very much, members of the committee.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Good luck.

We have a motion before us.

Madame Thibault.

[Louise Thibault, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I have in fact tabled a motion, but it will be presented by my colleague Mr. Nadeau, the Member for Gatineau. I would, however, like to say a few words. Some members have already made some suggestions and therefore, there will likely be some friendly amendments. I'm also told that Mr. Proulx will probably propose an amendment as well.

I simply want to suggest a correction to the text. The last sentence in French reads: “afin de rencontrer”. This is not correct usage in French. Instead, the motion should read “afin d'atteindre”. While I'd like my anglophone colleagues to trust me on this one, I don't expect my francophone colleagues to disagree with me.

Without further ado, I'll let Mr. Nadeau present the motion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Ms. Thibault, since this is your motion, I believe the rules state that you must move it yourself.

[Louise Thibault, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Very well then. I'd be happy to oblige.

We broached this subject both formally and informally at recent meetings. This morning, there's no doubt that I put the question very deliberately to the minister. During debate on the committee's second report, it was clear to us that the current government's intention was to implement measures with a view to attaining this objective. Pious wishes, in this case, aren't enough. This morning, I was very pleased to see the minister make a commitment of sorts.

Since my motion has been moved, I'll wait until my colleagues have deleted certain words, or expressions. Then, if my understanding is correct, we'll discuss the motion in greater detail.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Maybe you should read your motion first.

[Louise Thibault, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Certainly.

I assumed that everyone had a copy of it.

My motion reads as follows:

That the Committee report to the House the following motion:

That the government should make a commitment, starting now, to divide federal Public Service, government agency and Crown corporations jobs between Ottawa and Gatineau, respecting without exception the proportion of 75/25 that was agreed upon by the federal Cabinet in 1984, and making a strict rule of signing competitive leases; and That starting in 2007, the government report annually to the House on progress achieved in correcting the persisting inequity on the one hand and establishing an integrated plan of concrete actions for meeting and maintaining the 1984 objective on the other.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Thank you.

[Louise Thibault, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Would you like me to read it to you in the other language?

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

No, that's not necessary.

On the motion as presented, Mr. Warkentin.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

Thank you very much.

I was wondering if I might be able to offer a friendly amendment--I hope it's friendly.

It's just been read, so what I'll do is just read it the way I would see it be amended, then let's have some discussion about it. So it would be that the committee report to the House the following motion:

That the government should make a commitment, starting now, to divide federal Public Service, government agency, and Crown real estate between Ottawa and Gatineau respecting the proportions of 75/25 that was agreed upon by the federal cabinet of 1984.

Then it would continue “That starting in 2007...”, and the remainder would be the same.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

You may want to point out what the fundamental differences are.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

The fundamental differences are that we talk about real estate, so that would be added in replacing corporation jobs. We'd actually show that there's a tangible asset that will be on the other side of the river. And we'd remove the part saying that there be a strict rule in the signing of competitive leases, simply because strict rules...at least a suggestion has gone forward....

I just don't see the value, if we're removing the portion that is without exception. Because as we've discussed, there's a possibility of an exception in a case where there are no buildings, as an option for that time, but there would always be an intent to move toward that 75-25 allocation.