Government Operations Committee on Oct. 24th, 2006

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

I call this meeting to order, seeing as we definitely have quorum.

I will remind you that about two weeks ago there was a motion passed at this committee that we have two meetings of hearings on the cuts that were announced. We had the President of the Treasury Board come before our committee last week. We were scheduled today to hear witnesses from Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat; Mr. Hawkes, chief financial officer of the Department of Public Works and Government Services Canada; and witnesses from the Department of Human Resources and Social Development.

Yesterday there were some developments, and I'm going to ask the clerk to explain exactly what happened.

By whom were you notified, and what exactly happened?

[The Clerk of the Committee, Ms. Bibiane Ouellette]

I was notified by all three departments. I only had time to have one letter from the Department of Human Resources translated explaining why they couldn't come.

I had a letter from the Department of Public Works, and then yesterday I received an e-mail saying they declined the invitation.

I also had an e-mail from Treasury Board saying that they would have another opportunity to come before the committee, that they had already been here last week, and they thought that was sufficient.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

I think that's the one I have. I don't have the others.

I have a copy of an e-mail we received from Treasury Board. It's not translated, so I won't distribute it. It's an e-mail to the clerk, so maybe I'll let you read it.

[The Clerk]

It says:

As per his Ministerial responsibilities, the President of the Treasury Board appeared with the Secretary and the Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, at the Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates on Oct. 17, 2006 to answer questions on spending restraint. Committee Members had 2 hours to ask questions and the President of the Treasury Board and TBS officials believe they have fully answered questions on this matter. Therefore, TBS declines the invitation as they have already appeared.

Public Works replied:

The Minister and Officials will be appearing before the committee in November 2006. The Minister will be pleased to respond to questions with respect to the Expenditure Review Exercise at that time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

What about Human Resources?

[The Clerk]

That's the letter I circulated.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

You circulated that letter, so we have it. Maybe we should read it into the record.

[The Clerk]

It says:

Thank you for inviting our officials to appear before the Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates on Tuesday, October 24, to discuss the issue of budget reductions. Unfortunately, we will have to decline the invitation. We are currently hard at work preparing the Minister for his upcoming appearance before the Standing Committee on Human Resources, Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities on October 31, as well as before the Committee of the Whole on November 1. The 2006-07 Main Estimates will be the subject of rigorous review at that time, and all MPs will have the opportunity to join in the debate. MPs will therefore be able to discuss these issues with the Minister on two separate occasions and will be able to ask him all their questions about budget reductions, the Main Estimates and the Report on Plans and Priorities. I am sure they will use these opportunities to good effect and that the dialogue will be productive.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Thank you, Madam Clerk.

I want to tell you we got all of those late yesterday in the afternoon. They had known about this for some time.

I refused to cancel the meeting because I felt we should have a discussion concerning this.

I'll recognize Mr. Bains first, then Madam Thibault.

[Navdeep Bains, Liberal, Mississauga—Brampton South, ON]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I have a couple of questions.

I appreciate the clerk enlightening us as to the rush now and the reasons why the various departmental officials have declined to come and attend the meeting. This is the first time I have ever encountered this or heard of departmental officials giving such late notice to decline coming, especially on a very important subject matter.

I see the rationale given here for the Minister of Human Resources and Social Development Canada is that they're preparing her for a meeting next week, Tuesday, and that two hours of time today would sufficiently cause problems for them in terms of their preparation. I find that difficult to believe. Nevertheless, I think it's important and I think the other parties do support the spirit of this basic discussion.

I want to present a procedural motion to summon the various departmental officials to come. The motion is as follows: That the Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates issue a summons to David Moloney, senior assistant secretary, Expenditure Management Sector; Wayne G. Wouters, secretary, Treasury Board Secretariat; Mike Hawkes, chief financial officer, Department of Public Works and Government Services; and senior officials from the Department of Human Resources and Skills Development; that they appear before this committee no later than October 31, 2006, in order to answer questions relating to the $1 billion budget cuts that were announced on September 25, 2006.

I think it's very important that this particular motion be adopted by this committee for the following reasons.

There's a sense of disappointment and frustration among my colleagues and the members from the other parties. I think it is outrageous that we have departmental officials who decide in the last possible moment to decline to come.

Each week various themes develop. Last week we had an opportunity to speak to Minister Baird about the theme of cutting social programs, and then we started to at least get into the discussion of the fact that he's withholding funds now from projects as well, especially on infrastructure. Now there's a lack of accountability and transparency on their part whereby they're muzzling government officials. I don't know if that's the case. Again, I always give the government the benefit of the doubt. I always believe the minister has the best of intentions.

I think the onus now lies on the departmental officials to justify why. Some of the rationales and explanations given here I find a bit amusing, as I stated before. They need to prepare the minster for the meeting next week, October 31, next Tuesday. I find it difficult to believe that they are unable to take out two hours of their time to come to this committee to discuss a very important subject matter. These government cuts are still resonating with the Canadian public. People are still talking about these cuts to women, aboriginal people, youth, literacy programs, and people want additional information. They want to understand the government's rationale for why the most vulnerable people in society were targeted with these government cuts. I feel that government has a responsibility to be open, accountable, and transparent about this. Again, I don't understand why the government officials have decided at the last minute not to show up.

In light of that, I believe that all parties, including the government, will understand the importance of this particular subject matter and will support this motion. I want to put this motion forward, Madam Chair. I think it is in order because it is a procedural motion. Therefore, I would ask that we vote on this motion, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Can we have you write out that motion? Then we'll have it translated.

He'll write it out in English, and we'll have it translated.

I do accept the motion, because it concerns the matter that was on the agenda today and we don't need any notice for that. I will open for debate.

Yes.

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

I have a point of order.

In order for there to be a vote on any motion there has to be a 48-hour notice period, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Not on a procedural motion.

The clerk can perhaps advise us.

[The Clerk]

It deals with the business of today, so we don't need 48 hours notice.

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

Still on a point of order, I just want to make sure it was clear what we were debating. So Mr. Bains is tabling this motion, which, when he finishes writing it, we'll get a chance to read. We're debating that, and beyond this, that is the entire business of the day. We have these two motions, one by Madam Nash and one by Madame Thibault, that have been tabled, which we will vote on in the next committee meeting.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Madam Nash has one and she's given us notice. This is about the senator for Public Works and his future appearance before the committee. So that's a separate one.

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

Yes, and those have been tabled. So is the entire business of this meeting to debate Mr. Bains's motion, which he has yet to write?

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

We would like to summon. This is what this is. It says we're summoning the officials.

Madame Thibault.

[Louise Thibault, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

I want to clarify the following point, and to have it ratified by the Committee. The topic before the Committee—and the Clerk had no choice in the matter—is the review of spending cuts. I want it to be very clear that it does not in any way affect the second day, which must be dedicated to this review pursuant to the motion that I filed and that was accepted by the majority, if not unanimously.

That said, I will have the opportunity once again to speak about Mr. Bains’ motion. I don’t know if someone must speak before me.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

For the time being, I do not see who could speak before you.

Mr. Bains, were you able to draft your motion? We must have it translated.

[Navdeep Bains, Liberal, Mississauga—Brampton South, ON]

I am doing it, if you can just bear with me a moment, Madam Chair.

[Louise Thibault, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Can we talk about mine? Can we do that?

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

We have to deal with one motion...

[Louise Thibault, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

If I may say so, you received mine first. You received it last night.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

I have not read it, but I have read the other one. I do apologize.