Government Operations Committee on Nov. 9th, 2006

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Mr. Alghabra.

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Good morning, everybody. Minister, Mr. Marshall, and Mr. Bennett, it's good to see you all back here.

We're discussing a very important topic here, and I want to start by asking you a question, Minister. To whom do you feel you're accountable?

[Michael Fortier]

I'm accountable to Canadians and obviously to this committee, which is why I'm here this morning.

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

It's an important question to ask, given the fact that we don't see you in the House of Commons. The Senate is not allowed to ask you questions about Montreal, especially about the fact that you were a minister of Montreal.

You are in charge of the expenditures of one of the largest departments in the Government of Canada. You were talking about accountability, which of course all of us are big supporters of. You are trying to implement some measures, many of which are positive and probably will help Canadians and our government improve its accountability. But some people have this cynicism or skepticism when they don't see the minister take the opportunity to demonstrate his commitment to accountability.

Recently there was an opportunity to run in the Montreal area and you decided to pass on that opportunity. Maybe this is an opportunity for you to ease some of those questions and address them.

[Michael Fortier]

Well, I don't feel the urge to ease them; they've been eased and they've been addressed several times.

What I would say, Mr. Alghabra, is that I'm here to talk about procurement. As you know, you could have had several briefings from my department on procurement. My understanding is you haven't had one. You haven't sought one.

This morning I'm here to talk about procurement. I would be very pleased to answer questions about procurement, but perhaps you don't know much about procurement, because you haven't come to my department to get the main briefings--which you can get any time, any day, believe me.

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Minister, I think the patronizing attitude is not helpful to this discussion.

This is very important. We're talking about procurement. A lot of the suppliers who came here last time asked me this question in private, and on the record it was stated that they've never.... Mr. Ingle said that as a supplier for Public Works for the last twenty to thirty years, he has never seen it at the level it is now--much more complex and much less friendly. They're saying--and I'm not saying it was Mr. Ingle who said this to me--that they have a hard time squaring the circle.

This is a minister who has not been elected by Canadians who's talking about accountability, but we'd like to see him walk the walk. I think it's relevant to the procedure and to the direction in which you want to take the government. I'm saying some of it is probably very positive, but in order for it to gain credibility, we need to put this skepticism to rest.

[Michael Fortier]

Well, if you've had private conversations with folks who believe I should be running sooner rather than later in the general election, and that as a result thereof, procurement will be the better, allow me to doubt that.

I can tell you what some have told me privately, though. Over the past five or six years, as a result of, among other things, the ad scam, they've indeed seen this department being immobilized, with ministers who would do nothing except play rope-a-dope. The previous minister, frankly, was the best example of that, spending all of his time answering questions on Gomery in the House of Commons and doing nothing to move the ball with these people.

When I became minister, I found a set of people in the upper echelon hoping that for at least the next several years ahead they would have somebody who would actually be implementing things, rather than playing defence.

I'm happy to answer...I will run in the next general election; I made that clear. Once I've said that, I'm happy to answer questions about procurement. I understand you probably don't know much about it because you really haven't spent the time, unlike others among your colleagues, who have received briefings. You believed that not to be necessary, so I guess for you, discussing whether I will run in this riding or that is more interesting.

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

That's exactly the problem. You are treating this process with a very cynical and dismissive attitude and you're not willing to answer these questions.

You still have not answered the question. The issue of accountability is really why you would be much more....

This is part of democracy, so if you think democracy is a hindrance to your doing your job and answering questions and being accountable to one, that's really disappointing.

It's an opportunity, not just to decide what you want to do based on ideological reasons or some preconceived notion, but also to explain and justify to Canadians, to business owners, why you're doing these steps. You still have not answered the question I'm asking. It is that many people are asking how you square that circle. You're not accountable, while you're asking everybody else to be accountable.

[Michael Fortier]

I have answered the question, and I'm here to answer the questions you have about procurement. I have given....

Since I've been sworn in and been asked to be responsible for the department, very modestly, I would tell you that I've moved the ball much further than your previous colleagues in the past several years. That's accountability. I'm working for taxpayers, working for Canadians, and I think I'm doing a good job, but I understand that for partisan reasons you may not believe so, and I respect that.

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Do I still have time?

What's the percentage of small business suppliers to large business suppliers to your department?

[Michael Fortier]

As I said earlier, the data we currently hold tells us that the SMEs have a market share of about 29%.

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

At the time when some representatives from small businesses were here, they told us there was a push not to do business with small suppliers because the department has encouraged them to consolidate or create consortia to give them the opportunity to supply business to your department. Is that accurate?

[Michael Fortier]

No, it's not. Actually, it's just an option. We're giving small and medium-sized enterprises the option to do joint ventures so that they can actually win more business. It's not an obligation. We're not collapsing them into a system in which they have to do joint ventures.

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

If they were not to do that, would it affect their business?

[Michael Fortier]

Not at all. This is a platform to allow them to have more, not less.

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Are you planning on keeping track of the percentages between small business and large business, to make sure there is a balance that is maintained?

[Michael Fortier]

As I said earlier, my objective is to take this segment of the supplier world much closer to what they contribute to our GDP, which is in the 43% range.

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Do you have a plan to get there?

[Michael Fortier]

Yes. We've started with these offices that we've opened. This is going to take a little while, but the first step is to open offices. We have people on the ground and we're communicating with and reaching out to the SME world. I have every confidence that we will do this in the next little while.

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

In five years, what do you expect that percentage to be?

[Michael Fortier]

Right now, it's 29%, which is where you had left it when I showed up. We're going to do our best to take it to 43%. I know our people are going to work very hard, but I can't give you a timeline.

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

But you'd agree that setting targets always helps an organization accomplish things, right?

[Michael Fortier]

I believe that setting targets helps people to focus. That's right.

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Would you agree that, based on targets, it's reasonable to put in a plan for what you expect these percentages to become in the next few years?

[Michael Fortier]

I don't think you can. This is not an exact science. We should have that objective and we should be striving toward that objective, but to set that objective over the next two, three, four, or five years would not be something I would support.