Government Operations Committee on Nov. 21st, 2006

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Kramp.

[Daryl Kramp, Conservative, Prince Edward—Hastings, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

And to our guests, welcome again.

One topic we've been discussing at great length in this committee has been accrual accounting, which has already been discussed at the public accounts committee and through various departments. Of course the government and the various departments have made progress. Particularly in appropriations, where the area is deficient, we're moving potentially towards making recommendations for that as well.

The government and PCO are aware there has been movement through the different parliaments to head more and more towards the adoption of an accrual accounting process. Knowing this will require bridge financing and some initial dollars, for everything from software to hardware to extensive training, particularly at the departmental level, have there been any plans or preparations by PCO to adapt to this reality?

[Patrick Borbey]

Yes, I think all of the government is working on this through the leadership of Charles-Antoine St-Jean, the Comptroller General of Canada. I participate in committees with him; I sit on his advisory committee, and we have spent a fair amount of time on accrual accounting, budgeting and these issues, as well as on moving to audited financial statements, of course.

PCO does not escape that. However, PCO is a small organization, and our capacity to be able to invest internally to be able to adapt to these changes is limited. So we're hoping we'll be able to benefit from the leaders, the big departments, that are going to be able to lead the way in this area and maybe make some efficiencies. For example, one of the things you need to do to move towards audited financial statements is to have very well documented processes for everything you do financially. This is time-consuming, and we would love to be able to benefit from others doing it and then adopt standard processes so we can then focus our limited resources in the right areas.

Thérèse, did you want to add anything?

But we will be there. We will follow the government's lead in that area. We won't necessarily be the first, because of our limited capacity, but we certainly will be there.

It is important, too, because it does require different skill sets among our specialists, like Thérèse's group, as well as with our managers. And a deputy minister has to be able to read a financial statement in a completely different way than they've been used to, so I think all of us are going to go through significant shifts to be able to adapt to this successfully.

[Daryl Kramp, Conservative, Prince Edward—Hastings, ON]

Yes, because going through this process is going to require two things: it's going to require an investment, but it's also going to require a decision. And the decision, of course, will involve people of the quality and capacity to be able to handle and do the job. That's why I think Mr. Bains' question regarding the availability of qualified, capable people....

Do you sense we have that depth within the overall structure of government right now, or do you sense that we need to be bringing in external assistance to be able to take us through a process like this? Have you had a chance to evaluate the actual complexities of the accrual process to see whether or not it would possibly be a very serious personnel problem?

[Patrick Borbey]

I think that Mr. St-Jean would be the best person to answer that question, but I can help. I can give you my view, which is that we will need to make some adjustments, both in terms of the financial specialists, in making sure they have the skills, the certifications, to be able to meet those new requirements, and the managers, who themselves are going to be signing and certifying that they live by their financial results, all the way up to the deputy minister. There's going to be some education required on both sides. On one side it's going to be very thorough, when we're talking about more CAs, more people with certifications in key jobs.

We're lucky here at PCO that Madame Roy has all of those certifications, so she can help guide us down that path, but there are many others in the community that have not been certified. It's not that they're not skilled, but they haven't necessarily adapted to the private sector equivalents in terms of accreditation. So we're going to need to invest on both sides to get there.

[Daryl Kramp, Conservative, Prince Edward—Hastings, ON]

Thank you very much.

Totally changing tack here, on Air India we've spent a lot of money. I have a question. We've had investigations and investigations, and we've had preliminary inquiries, and now we're going to spend significant dollars again. What, in your impression, is going to be the major difference between the investigations that have taken place in the past, whether through CSIS, the RCMP, and/or under administrative investigation, and the investigation that's going to take place now?

[Patrick Borbey]

I'll let Mr. Roy talk.

[Yvan Roy]

Your asking us, to some extent, to prejudge what the commission is going to produce. I'm not going to go there.

I can tell you that there are a number of things in reference to the commission that, if Commissioner Major is able to deliver on, will be of assistance to this government and this bureaucracy now.

As a case in point, the government is asking Commissioner Major to help us with how, in a court of law, we transfer what is intelligence into evidence. I can tell you that when I was in the Department of Justice five or six years ago, we were very much concerned about this, and we did not know how to do this. We have now a former Supreme Court of Canada justice who is going to be spending some time trying to give us some elements as to how we're going to be able to come up with a scheme that is workable.

He will perhaps be able to tell us how we turn a mega-trial into something that is more manageable. If he's able to come up with things of that nature, it will be worth every penny that is being spent on this. On top of that, I think this provides a forum for people who feel they have not received the kind of attention that the government should have given them, and it provides that forum so that Canadian people as a whole will be able to come to some understanding of what ought to have been done in 1985 and before, and therefore what we should be doing in the future to prevent something like this from happening.

I said I was not going to answer questions of the nature of why we are doing this. I guess I have crossed that line a little bit, but I happen to think that the government is doing something that is going to be worthwhile.

[Daryl Kramp, Conservative, Prince Edward—Hastings, ON]

Fine. Would it be within the boundary of your assessment, then, to suggest that, at a bare minimum, this could be a template for how we might proceed in the future, so as to avoid duplication, so as to avoid inefficiencies, so as to provide results for the electorate?

[Yvan Roy]

I certainly agree wholeheartedly with that statement.

[Daryl Kramp, Conservative, Prince Edward—Hastings, ON]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

You have just about two seconds.

[Daryl Kramp, Conservative, Prince Edward—Hastings, ON]

Two seconds only? Actually, my next question is going to require more than that, so I'll wait, Madam Chair, till the next occasion.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Thank you.

Monsieur Bonin.

[Raymond Bonin, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Merci, madame la présidente.

Messieurs Roy et Borbey, madame Roy, when you address the cross-departmental coordination, you speak of forming and maintaining deputy minister committees, and the writing here says, “Ensure a greater cross-departmental coordination and coherence...”—everybody wants that—“...in the execution of the Government's policy agenda”.

Now, the policy part of it is what concerns me. Which committees will be maintained, and how will we know what policy they are developing? My understanding of these committees is that there are no records, and we don't have access to the work that they do. To be blunt, I'm concerned that they would be developing policy for government and for this country in secret.

[Patrick Borbey]

A number of committees fall under the umbrella of what's called a coordinating committee of deputy ministers. That's the overall committee chaired by the Clerk of the Privy Council, and then you have a series of committees that each have a specific function. I can talk a bit about that if you want and I'll try to do it as quickly as possible.

The Committee of Senior Officials, COSO, acts as the human resource committee for the senior executive cadre of the public service. Again, it's chaired by the Clerk of the Privy Council, and so a number of deputy ministers.... This is to focus on the deputy minister, associate deputy minister, and assistant deputy minister level of government.

The Treasury Board portfolio advisory committee brings together the members of the portfolio, so there's the agency we talked about earlier, PSHRMAC, the Treasury Board Secretariat itself, the school of the public service, and a number of deputies who advise on how they can contribute to the public service. For example, new learning strategies associated with the implementation of the Federal Accountability Act would be developed and advised on at that level.

A special committee has been created by the clerk and is chaired by Margaret Bloodworth, the associate clerk, and that's called the public service renewal committee. It will be focusing its attention on that challenge we talked about before, which is, how do we proceed with renewal? What are the specific strategies, programs, activities we can focus on there?

There's the Human Resource Management Advisory Committee, which focuses on all the human resource policies. For example, the new act, the Public Service Modernization Act, would have been their responsibility.

En suite, you then have three committees focused on specific policy areas: economic, prosperity, environment, and energy is one; social inclusion and justice; and global affairs, security and human rights. They focus on more of the bread-and-butter policy and program in advising the government.

[Raymond Bonin, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

When you say deputy ministers' committees that will strengthen decision-making and integration on both policy and management issues, are you saying it's to implement policy already established by law or are you talking about developing policy in these committees?

[Patrick Borbey]

It's more the latter, more development, but it doesn't exclude orderly implementation.

[Raymond Bonin, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Is it to put in motion policy decisions that have been decided by the House, or is it to discuss policy that would affect future decisions of the House?

[Patrick Borbey]

It's mostly to work in a coordinated way on developing the options and the policy recommendations the government will then look at from an executive perspective.

[Raymond Bonin, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Policy could be developed strictly by bureaucrats unknown to elected people, because these committees are not public committees and they don't share their records or information with me, the backbencher.

[Patrick Borbey]

One of the fundamental roles of the public service is to develop policies, proposals, and options and analyze them and make recommendations to the government of the day.

[Raymond Bonin, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

As you develop it, I don't have access to it until you have developed it.

[Patrick Borbey]

You will have access to it at the point where the government decides it wants to put forward a proposal to Parliament. For example, a piece of legislation is tabled in the House.

[Raymond Bonin, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Then we fall back on the fact that a committee only recommends. I guess that's the answer. It's something to be concerned about for us.