Government Operations Committee on Nov. 21st, 2006

[Yvan Roy]

That is a very good question.

Bill C-2, the new Federal Accountability Act, fits within a context. That context is basically what has been the practice that has become part of our common law. For instance, in matters in which there is a disagreement between the minister and deputy minister, it requires that a matter like this be referred to the Clerk of the Privy Council, my boss, who, according to how things work, would take this up with the Prime Minister. But that is when you have a situation developing between a minister of the Crown and his or her deputy minister. That doesn't change because of Bill C-2. That continues to be a role that the Clerk of the Privy Council will play. It is actually needed that there be someone in the system who does that, and the Clerk of the Privy Council will continue to do that.

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

But the act is going to put forward a whole bunch of new things that you've never had before.

[Yvan Roy]

On the act in particular, I think what your question is leading to is the whole issue of the accounting officer and the role that the new deputy ministers will have to play in appearing before parliamentary committees for the purpose of answering their questions.

The act is clear on what is going to happen if there is a conflict between the deputy minister and the minister on a matter that deals with administration or, generally speaking, issues that are governed by directives and policies of Treasury Board. In those circumstances, you may have a deputy minister who says he's a bit caught because the minister is asking him to do something. He thinks that what the minister is asking him to do goes against the policies and directives. Where does he go for guidance on something like this? The act says that in circumstances like this, he should go to the Secretary of the Treasury Board, who is a deputy minister, but a deputy minister who has special expertise. That deputy minster—the Secretary of the Treasury Board—will see to it that the matter is resolved. If it is not, the matter is going to be brought to the attention of the Treasury Board itself, which is, as you know, the committee of cabinet that would make the final determination.

What the act is trying to do with respect to matters of that nature is provide guidance and provide the mechanism whereby the situation will be resolved. Again, this mechanism is with respect to these types of issues. There are many more issues that deputy ministers and the bureaucracy in general have to deal with on a daily basis, and they do not in any way, shape, or form diminish the role the Clerk of the Privy Council would have to play in those circumstances. Again, in other cases the deputy minister would seek guidance from the clerk, and the matter, if it needs to be resolved at a higher level, will have to go the Prime Minister.

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

This leads perhaps to my final question. I don't know if any of my colleagues have questions on this side at this time, but you've given a specific example of when there's a potential conflict--perhaps a question, maybe not the word “conflict”--when a question is raised between a deputy minister and a minister. I understand that's one example. The question that has been suggested is what effect theFederal Accountability Act will have on the routine operation of the Privy Council, if any.

[Yvan Roy]

Of the Privy Council, as such? We are a department like any other department around town, so the issues having to do with conflict of interest, having to do with contracting--you have part 5 of the bill, which deals with contracting--applies to us, the same as anyone else. I don't think it would be fair to tell you that we see Bill C-2 as providing us with a new tool to, for all intents and purposes, supervise the whole of the public service.

With the resources that we have, one, it would be impossible, and we'd be selling you something that you're not willing to buy. Two, in law this is not how this works. I happen to be a lawyer and I like to go back to that kind of framework. The Financial Administration Act continues to apply, and it will be strengthened by Bill C-2. It will be the responsibility of Treasury Board to ensure that these things take place.

What we provide in PCO is the challenge function. We try to coordinate issues. We try to make sure things are coherent. But Bill C-2 has not made PCO into policemen for the whole of the civil service. That's not what was intended, and that's not what we intend to do with it.

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Thank you.

Madam Chow.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I have three or four questions, but on a point of order first, we do have a motion that deals with the supplementary estimates that have been submitted to the clerk, and I think we will deal with it probably around 12:30 or so, prior to the end of the meeting and after the witnesses leave. Is that the intention of the committee?

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

It would depend on how much time we take with this. It may or may not come forward. Right now we're dealing with the estimates for the Privy Council Office, and whether we actually get to vote on those estimates at this point, I can't tell you. We'll have to wait to see what happens toward the end of the meeting. The motion that you're talking about has to do with--

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

Public Works.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

--Public Works, that's right. We may get to it and we may not, it's difficult to say.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

But one way or another, this committee needs to have a vote on the Public Works budget eventually.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

We will be doing that either today or Thursday, one or the other. Depending on how much time we take with this group, we will go on from there.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

I will proceed with the questions, then.

I have three areas of discussion. One is the appointment process and the other one is the access to information reform. The last one is on the supplementary budget specifically.

As to the appointment process, what role do you play and where is that budget? For example, if recently there's been an appointment on the Immigration Refugee Board and that appointment is done through, I believe, the immigration minister, what role would you play? Is there going to be any reform as to how that appointment process would be vetted, any public process?

[Yvan Roy]

It happens, Madam Chairperson, that the assistant deputy minister responsible for senior personnel and those appointments is with us and will be able to answer your question with the appropriate details. It's Mr. Marc O'Sullivan sitting at the back.

Marc, do you want to join us?

[Marc O'Sullivan, Assistant Secretary to the Cabinet, Senior Personel and Special Projects Secretariat, Privy Council Office]

With respect to the Immigration and Refugee Board, the role of the Privy Council Office is the same as for all appointments made by cabinet, appointments by the Governor in Council to various boards, agencies and commissions. Essentially, it's a coordination function to ensure that vacancies are filled and to ensure that necessary due diligence is applied in terms of vetting the appointments, in terms of security checks, etc., that have to be done before the appointments are made.

The responsible minister recommends the appointment and cabinet approves the appointment.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

I know all that. As a public servant, being neutral, whether it's the Toronto Port Authority or the recent appointment to the IRB, given that there are a lot of vacancies and the recent appointment was a person who happens to be on the executive of the Conservative Party of Ontario, is it part of your mandate to make sure there is neutrality in who gets appointed, the process itself, how the public can be involved in it, the transparency, and the accountability?

[Marc O'Sullivan]

To use the IRB as a specific example, it runs a very rigorous selection process for positions. The intent to run a process is announced publically. People apply, and then they go through a very rigorous selection process to arrive at a list of qualified candidates. That is then submitted to the minister to select those to recommend as appointees to cabinet. The IRB is a good example of a very rigorous, open, and transparent selection process for the members of that board.

The government has announced its commitment to run such open and transparent processes for as many appointments as possible. Positions as heads of agencies, for example, are announced. There's a government website that lists the vacancies, and people can apply for them. Selection processes are run to identify qualified candidates. At the end of the day, the responsible minister makes a recommendation to cabinet. The IRB is a good example.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

But your role is primarily just a coordination role.

[Marc O'Sullivan]

Yes.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

Do you also let the public know?

[Marc O'Sullivan]

There are hundreds of positions. It would be physically impossible for us to coordinate and run everything centrally. The positions are announced. There are various agencies such as the IRB that run their own selection processes. Vacancies are announced. People submit their CVs and go through written tests. Then there's a selection board for the names of qualified candidates to be put forward to the minister.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

Thank you very much for that.

On another area, access to information relating to Bill C-2, tell us about the role you have in resisting some of the reforms. There have been a lot of discussions. What kinds of connections in terms of ATI reform related to Bill C-2...? What role did you play in that whole discussion?

[Yvan Roy]

I'm a tad surprised by the question, in that it implies that the Privy Council Office has been resisting changes. That is not my understanding of what transpired following the discussions that took place and what you will find in Bill C-2.

PCO has a role to play, like any other department, but we are not in charge of this area or responsible for making decisions at the end of the day. Let's always bring this back to what it is. We're providing advice to the government that is completely non-partisan, and the political overlay and decisions are made by ministers. I am able to answer the question of what; it's much more difficult for me to answer why we are doing this or that.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

No. How about what advice you have...?