Government Operations Committee on April 17th, 2007

[Nicole Jauvin]

There's a committee of ministers called the Treasury Board that is looking at Service Canada as an initiative. Of course the ministers would look at this and make the ultimate decisions.

But when those decisions are made with respect to how to organize Service Canada and which services to deliver, we have to remember that Service Canada is not an end in itself. The end is service to Canadians, and if Canadians aren't being well served, then adjustments and improvements have to be made until this happens. There's no question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

My point.

At any rate, I'm taking somebody else's time.

Madame Nash, I'm sorry about that.

[Peggy Nash, NDP, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

You were taking my time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

I feel passionately about this issue because it drives me crazy. Somebody says we're going to give you great service, but it's not the service you need.

Madame Nash.

[Peggy Nash, NDP, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

How much time do I have?

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

You can have as much time as I give you.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Peggy Nash, NDP, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

It's the discretion of the chair.

I want to welcome our witnesses this afternoon.

An issue that I found interesting in Madame Barrados' presentation was the equity targets for the federal public service.

I come from a riding in downtown Toronto where there are large numbers of new Canadians and many people of colour. As I understand it from Madame Barrados, we are consistently failing to reach—and you reinforced it again here today—the employment equity targets for people of colour. When I asked her why, she was unsure. She said that there are lots of applicants, but very few people get through the system to be hired. As you indicated in the numbers, there was some marginal increase, but it was still far below where the numbers should be.

Why do you think this is a target that the federal public sector is failing to meet on a continual basis?

[Nicole Jauvin]

The Public Service Commission is asking that question and is actually undertaking a study to answer that question. The reality is there is no obvious one thing that we could point to. It is what makes our task very difficult.

Although we'll be very interested in the results of this drop-off study that Madame Barrados is doing, what we are doing is trying to think of innovative ways to ensure we don't have a drop-off rate.

For example, I'll give you the example of our pool of compensation specialists. We had a percentage rate for people of a visible minority group of about 27% of applications. It was thousands and thousands of applications. But as we were narrowing the group down to the last 100 or 200, we made sure we were keeping the percentage consistent so that our pool gave us a result of 27% or a little higher.

We are really trying to make sure that we don't do anything in terms of the interviewing. We're preparing tools for our managers to make sure we don't inadvertently do something to make it more difficult for persons in that designated group to come into the public service.

It's a very tough question, and it's something that we absolutely have to get right. We have to do this. I'm absolutely with you.

[Peggy Nash, NDP, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

There are certainly people who come to me in my riding saying they want to apply, but how do they get in? I tell them there are thousands of applicants for every job, and it's very difficult to get in.

It is distressing to see how low the success rate is for people of colour. As you know, there are many very highly qualified people who come here. To get past the points system and get into Canada, people are highly skilled. Those skills often are wasted because their credentials aren't properly recognized. It would be very desirable on their part to be able to be accepted in the federal public service.

The parliamentary library has given us some background information for our meeting today. They say that about 88% of new federal employees are hired as term, casual, or student applicants. It seems to be a very high number. Why is that?

[Nicole Jauvin]

There are a number of reasons for that. I agree with you that it's a very high number.

[Peggy Nash, NDP, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Is it true that casual employees are exempted from the employment equity legislation?

[Nicole Jauvin]

Yes.

[Peggy Nash, NDP, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

None of these casual employees would be part of the equity groups, and it wouldn't be a problem.

[Karen Ellis, Vice-President, Public Service Renewal and Diversity, Public Service Human Resources Management Agency of Canada]

What you said is absolutely right. For any term positions of less than three months, those people, plus casual employees, would not be counted under the act. We wouldn't actually be able to count those numbers.

[Peggy Nash, NDP, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

How likely is it that someone who is hired as a term employee or a casual employee would get a better chance of being hired in the federal government? Does it happen? If I work three months or two months as a term employee, am I more likely to get a job?

[Nicole Jauvin]

To become an indeterminate employee after you've been a term employee, it's automatic if you have uninterrupted service after three years. It is only fair at the end of the day that if you've been giving your time and effort to the government on a term basis, you're converted to indeterminate status automatically. But to become a term employee, there is a full competition.

For casual employees, it's not exactly the same. There is no competition. The issue is that you can only be hired for 90 days within one department.

[Peggy Nash, NDP, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

But in a competition, if I've been hired for 90 days, does it give me a bit more of a step up on other applicants?

[Nicole Jauvin]

Clearly, if you've been in a department, you have more experience than somebody who hasn't. That experience will be there and will be looked at and considered. You wouldn't not do so.

[Peggy Nash, NDP, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

So this could be one factor that is preventing us from reaching our employment equity goals.

Why is it that the casual employees, term employees, do not have to meet the employment equity targets?

[Nicole Jauvin]

It's not that they don't meet them; it's that we don't count them. I'm not sure, if we were actually able to count them, what result we would find.

[Peggy Nash, NDP, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Could you count them and let us know?

[Nicole Jauvin]

This would have to be on a voluntary basis. Even to have people in the public service now stand up and be counted is very difficult. We find that the number of people who self-designate and what we can see is not necessarily always the same, and there's nothing we can do. You can't force someone.

[Peggy Nash, NDP, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Do people self-identify when they apply for a job, or is it just a survey that you do every few years?

[Nicole Jauvin]

It depends on the department, I believe. I know that it's in the department's interest to know, so you can ask the question. In some departments, every time you move jobs they ask you on your form when you're accepting whether or not you wish to self-identify. But as I said, a lot of people choose not to.