And it's also about what these people are doing.
You can probably find a much more efficient use of people once your processes are more efficient. And I know that in the private sector, I've been told, they look you in the eyes and say to you, “There's a very, very high percentage of savings once you start doing a bit of rethinking in your processes and you start the cleaning up.”
Then that allows you to use the technology, not to make up big systems, but to use the existing technology so that you do something once, not five times by hand.