Evidence of meeting #53 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was lease.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Keith Jameson  Director, Real Estate, BMO Capital Markets
Carolyn Blair  Managing Director, Real Estate Group, RBC Capital Markets

4:25 p.m.

Managing Director, Real Estate Group, RBC Capital Markets

Carolyn Blair

Yes. I can tell you that companies or governments that consider their strategic alternatives tend to look at sale and leasebacks. They look at REITs. They look at pre-sales. They look at joint ventures. There is quite a broad range of different types of alternatives. They consider the status quo. There are a large number of alternatives that are considered.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Garth Turner Conservative Halton, ON

So having looked at those alternatives, it was your recommendation that selling the buildings and leasing them back was a better deal financially for the Government of Canada than any of the other options.

4:25 p.m.

Managing Director, Real Estate Group, RBC Capital Markets

Carolyn Blair

Correct, for those nine.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Garth Turner Conservative Halton, ON

For those nine. So was the report's conclusion, the bank's conclusion, that it was better for the taxpayers of the country?

4:25 p.m.

Managing Director, Real Estate Group, RBC Capital Markets

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Garth Turner Conservative Halton, ON

All right. But we can't see a copy of the report.

4:25 p.m.

Managing Director, Real Estate Group, RBC Capital Markets

Carolyn Blair

Our client has it. It's in the hands of our client.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Garth Turner Conservative Halton, ON

I guess we will ask the minister on Thursday to give us the report.

I have another question for you, which I posed the other day when we had officials here from Public Works. The Government of Canada is spending around $200 million a year, which it has budgeted for repairs on buildings. Yet we, as a committee, have been told that one of the overriding factors that is prompting the government to consider the sale of buildings is an accumulated deficit for repairs of some $3.5 billion. If the Government of Canada came to you and said “We'll give you $200 million a year as financing and will you lend us a couple of billion dollars to get this going”, is that an outrageous request?

4:25 p.m.

Director, Real Estate, BMO Capital Markets

Keith Jameson

I don't understand the question. You want to raise the funds? Do you mean you want to finance it yourself?

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Garth Turner Conservative Halton, ON

Sure. If we're spending $200 million a year on repairs anyway, why not rent capital in order to use the capital to complete all repairs and improve the value of the real estate portfolio?

4:25 p.m.

Director, Real Estate, BMO Capital Markets

Keith Jameson

That is a fair question, and that absolutely was considered. It comes back to the theme of ownership and how owners determine how they invest money in their buildings.

I will give you a very fundamental example. A builder builds a home. The homeowner decides to spend all sorts of money changing it, holding back, waiting to decide if he wants to do something different, and suddenly it's 30% more expensive than if it had been left to the builder alone to build it. The fact of the matter is that users are not efficient in how they make decisions and what they spend their money on.

I suppose if you started to engage professional asset managers who truly could make decisions on where the money was spent most effectively, it's possible you could restructure the whole organization. But that opportunity has been in place for many years, and clearly that hasn't been done.

The government has indicated to us that there is not an ability to make those decisions effectively. With the bureaucracy required to make those decisions slowing things down and therefore being more costly, the private sector is deemed to be more efficient at doing that. Your $200 million could maybe be done by the private sector for $100 million. That is part of the objective of selling and leasing back and having private sector management.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Garth Turner Conservative Halton, ON

This was an option that was looked at in the report?

4:30 p.m.

Managing Director, Real Estate Group, RBC Capital Markets

Carolyn Blair

Maybe we could say it this way. We definitely considered whether the government's cost of capital, as defined by the government's cost of debt, is an appropriate benchmark to look at as a source of financing. Whether it's this client or other ones, I think it's very important to consider what your real cost of capital is. I think when you take a look at a situation like this, you have an apparent cost, being your cost of debt, which is lower than anybody else's. However, the gap between where the government's cost of capital is and everybody else's certainly has compressed, so there's not that much difference any more.

But let's grant that you have the lowest cost. If you lop on top of that the real estate risk that you are assuming by continuing to own--and by that I mean residual risk--as you continue to own these and don't maintain them well, their value does not appreciate the same way as a private sector building does. As your deferred capital that we've all heard about builds up, your value is going down. So when you go to sell that building way down the road, maybe it's occupied, maybe it's not. Let's say you're selling an empty, poorly maintained building. Its value is quite low. So that's residual risk.

You have the preventative maintenance deficiencies that we've talked about already. You have the forgone market opportunities, which might be realizing additional density, putting different tenants in on the ground floor, or using excess space. This is what Keith was talking about earlier: the asset management versus just plain property management.

If you combine those risks with forgone opportunities, with the massive cost of delivering the service versus the private sector, in terms of the infrastructure that the government needs to process and make decisions, the real cost to capital of owning these buildings, I would respectfully say, is probably a lot higher than people in this room may think it is, if you think it's only the cost of debt.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Garth Turner Conservative Halton, ON

It would be nice to see that.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Diane Marleau

Thank you.

Mr. Nadeau, you have the floor.

May 29th, 2007 / 4:30 p.m.

Bloc

Richard Nadeau Bloc Gatineau, QC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Madam, Sir, thank you for coming.

An article in the Globe and Mail of March 19 said that the nine buildings had a total market value of 1.4 billion dollars and that one had been overvalued by 120 million dollars. First of all, how is such a thing possible? Next, would this not result in overrating the rents to be paid?

4:30 p.m.

Director, Real Estate, BMO Capital Markets

Keith Jameson

I'll try. I'm not 100% sure that I'm clear, although I would suggest--

4:30 p.m.

Bloc

Richard Nadeau Bloc Gatineau, QC

I will repeat quickly because I only have five minutes: on March 19, the Globe and Mail... Did you get that? The nine buildings had been appraised at 1.4 billion dollars. One of the nine had been overvalued by 120 million dollars.

How could such a thing happen? Furthermore, when something like this happens, how does this impact the new tenant, who is the previous owner?

4:35 p.m.

Director, Real Estate, BMO Capital Markets

Keith Jameson

First of all, we appear to have lost $100 million from the last member's estimate of value. But the fact is that the values that were in the paper have very little, if any, relevance to real market. As an example, there are certain assets, I know, that the government acquired that were empty. They would have had certain values at that point in time, and at that point in time in the market, there's no question that the value of the buildings with the government as an occupant paying rent was significantly greater and therefore different from the “market value” that an appraiser might apply under different circumstances if you were not an occupant and tenant under the lease term.

So I think we're dealing with the analogy of the apples and oranges in terms of trying to compare value of one versus the other, if I understood your question.

4:35 p.m.

Bloc

Richard Nadeau Bloc Gatineau, QC

Thank you, that is fine. I have many questions but am allowed only five minutes. I do not want to cut you off, but I would like to move along.

Investors are not necessarily good managers. We agree so far. I would like to know if the Government of Canada would not be better off by retaining ownership of its buildings and hiring somebody to manage them if it is itself such a bad manager.

4:35 p.m.

Director, Real Estate, BMO Capital Markets

Keith Jameson

This comes back to my first point of the split between the services of property management and asset management. Hiring a property manager is easy; you already have one. Making the important decisions on where the money gets spent and why is the real key issue, and that's where asset management, the owner of the building, makes those key decisions, and I think that's where there is a breakdown in communication in the ownership and management of the government buildings. The people who are ultimately making the decisions on what to spend and how much to spend, and how efficient a quote is to repair something, that's where the challenge is. So retaining ownership and simply hiring property management doesn't achieve the real objective of having good solid decisions on how the building gets truly operated and managed.

4:35 p.m.

Bloc

Richard Nadeau Bloc Gatineau, QC

Okay.

Are you looking for Canadian or foreign owners? Does it matter?

4:35 p.m.

Managing Director, Real Estate Group, RBC Capital Markets

Carolyn Blair

There are provisions in the process to deal with Canadian content. I don't think it's appropriate that we go into exactly what it says in the confidential—

4:35 p.m.

Bloc

Richard Nadeau Bloc Gatineau, QC

Could it happen that ownership be indirectly in foreign hands?

4:35 p.m.

Managing Director, Real Estate Group, RBC Capital Markets

Carolyn Blair

I think you could assume that the majority of ownership would be Canadian.