Evidence of meeting #58 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was case.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:05 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Diane Marleau
I thought so too, but we'll get an answer from you, to clarify the facts. I know it was discussed at length when we had it, and I'm sure it was discussed at length afterwards.
I apologize, Mr. Nadeau. I will give you your time now.
12:05 p.m.
Bloc
Richard Nadeau Bloc Gatineau, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Good afternoon, Ms. Ouimet.
In your capacity as Integrity Commissioner, will you be responding to complaints or suggestions from people, as well as from departments, government organizations and Crown corporations? Let us take the example of the Department of Finance, CIDA and Canada Post. Will you be involved with all these groups?
12:05 p.m.
Bloc
Richard Nadeau Bloc Gatineau, QC
So no Crown corporation or other government body has been left out.
12:05 p.m.
As an Individual
There is one exception—the Canadian Security Intelligence Service and National Defence. That is my recollection.
12:05 p.m.
Bloc
Richard Nadeau Bloc Gatineau, QC
So everything related to high levels of security. But you are there for all the others.
12:05 p.m.
Bloc
Richard Nadeau Bloc Gatineau, QC
I was pleased to hear my friend Ms. Poilievre speaking indirectly about the $1,500. I'm going to throw the ball back into his court, so to speak. The situation is somewhat the same as that regarding the Court Challenges Program. When the time comes to provide financial assistance to allow a public servant or a government employee who blows the whistle to follow through with legal proceedings, it becomes a struggle between David and Goliath.
In any case, does your position provide protection for all Canadians? For example, if an individual wants to report something, but does not think that it falls within the usual context, are you able to do an investigation?
12:10 p.m.
As an Individual
I am going to be cautious here, because it is easy to misinterpret things. I do not think the office has jurisdiction over the private sector. A little earlier, one of the members made a distinction. It would all depend on the source of the disclosure. If it concerns contributions, I have some authority to determine whether any wrongdoing occurred. However, in the case of the private sector, as you described it, I would not have this authority.
12:10 p.m.
Bloc
Richard Nadeau Bloc Gatineau, QC
But it would be possible if it were a citizen and the case involved government funds.
12:10 p.m.
As an Individual
There would have to be some link between the situation and the public sector for the office to have jurisdiction.
12:10 p.m.
Bloc
Richard Nadeau Bloc Gatineau, QC
The example I was thinking of was in the context of the public sector. I'm not talking about a private company. If government funds are mismanaged or someone has taken inappropriate action, a complaint could be made by an ordinary citizen.
12:10 p.m.
As an Individual
Serious mismanagement, as described in the act, could fall within the purview of the legislation and could be reviewed by the commissioner.
12:10 p.m.
Bloc
Richard Nadeau Bloc Gatineau, QC
I have two other questions.
I had to give some answers to officials from Public Works and Government Services Canada. The issue involved a pay matter. I had suggested a meeting with Minister Fortier on this. One individual agreed to be present, but two others refused, because they were afraid they could lose their job if they went to see the minister. However, the issue was of concern to them, because they were not getting their pay regularly.
There is fear within the public service. I do not know how widespread it is, but what are you going to do to ensure that public servants, wherever they may work, know that they can meet with you without feeling the sword of Damocles is hanging over their head?
Perhaps you cannot answer the question immediately, but do you have some thoughts on this in terms of marketing your position as Public Sector Integrity Commissioner?
12:10 p.m.
As an Individual
While I cannot comment on this specific case, a case with which I am not familiar, I can say that the act provides a number of tools, such as protected disclosure.
Secondly, comprehensive information documents explaining the mandate of my office were distributed by Treasury Board and the Public Service Agency. As I said a little earlier, part of the mandate of the office of the commissioner is to ensure that the right information is made available so that people feel comfortable coming forward.
12:10 p.m.
Bloc
Richard Nadeau Bloc Gatineau, QC
I am sorry to interrupt you, but my time is limited.
Have you spoken with representatives from the Public Service Alliance of Canada or from other public service unions?
12:10 p.m.
As an Individual
I have worked closely with the unions, particularly in my three previous positions. Indeed, I facilitated meetings with the unions. I was the principal contact person and I had excellent working relations with them.
12:10 p.m.
Bloc
Richard Nadeau Bloc Gatineau, QC
What do you believe will be your principal challenge when you take up your new duties?
12:10 p.m.
As an Individual
Defining the office's mandate. I will strive to keep in mind the questions that have been raised, as I want to ensure that I carry out the work with which Parliament and the committee have entrusted me with integrity, diligence and thoroughness.
12:15 p.m.
Conservative
Daryl Kramp Conservative Prince Edward—Hastings, ON
Thank you. I'm just going to take a short time here. It's honestly quite refreshing to have such a capable invitee here at our committee. I have a couple of quick questions.
How do you plan to deal with anonymous complaints?
12:15 p.m.
As an Individual
In fact, the act is quite clear with respect to anonymous complaints. I think the employee will have protected disclosure;however, he or she must put in writing the basis of the wrongdoing. It doesn't lend much credibility to a complaint if the individual cannot come forward and stand behind the allegations. And that's also part of natural justice. The individual is protected to the extent that it does not impede the actual process and resolution of the issues.
12:15 p.m.
Conservative
Daryl Kramp Conservative Prince Edward—Hastings, ON
Thank you.
I'm deeply concerned, because legitimate complaints are just that--legitimate. But a lot of times rumour, innuendo, and suspicion themselves can ruin careers, let alone impact legislation and/or even politics. We've all seen that ugly head of it. That's why I want to somehow be assured that your department would thoroughly examine a complaint before you take any precipitous action that could be harmful to the complainant or the appellant.
12:15 p.m.
As an Individual
Madam Chair, this is a very valid point. Frivolous and vexatious proceedings should not be pursued.
12:15 p.m.
Conservative
Daryl Kramp Conservative Prince Edward—Hastings, ON
I have just one other brief question, then. It's not even a question as much as it's almost a pie-in-the-sky type of approach.
You obviously will have legal parameters and responsibilities. But during your term of employment as commissioner, you're going to have quite an opportunity, as well, to have a dramatic impact on the system and its actual operation. I'm trying to advance your thoughts years down the road. You're going to leave that job afterwards, and you're going to leave a legacy. What would your thoughts be as far as any goals are concerned at this particular point? In your legacy, what would you like your accomplishments to be, and/or would you have established a sense of direction?
In essence, in the short term, what would your personal stamp be on this position?