Government Operations Committee on Feb. 7th, 2008

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

We'll go to Mr. Kramp, followed by Madame Folco, followed by Mr. Warkentin.

[Daryl Kramp, Conservative, Prince Edward—Hastings, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair. I have just two questions.

Whenever we have a turnover and/or we have the chain reactions, as you termed them, or basically a domino effect, is there an expectation within the structure of the employees and/or the management that advancement then is basically automatic? Or is it based on an expectation of a competition? What would be the mindset in that case?

[Karen Ellis]

As I said, the basic values of anything we do in terms of staffing of any type, including promotion or whatever it might be, have to be fairness, access, and transparency. If somebody is going off on maternity leave or someone retires and their job becomes vacant, the manager has to have done some thinking about their staffing strategy for replacing that person. How are they going to do it?

There can be any variety of ways of doing that. They may run a short internal process to give an acting assignment so that those who might be interested in trying that as an acting--

[Daryl Kramp, Conservative, Prince Edward—Hastings, ON]

But you're saying that they may. Do we have a set modus operandi and/or a policy that states how we fill that position? My concern is this feeling of, well, Johnny's leaving, and I've been Johnny's understudy for the past four years, so obviously that's my job. Do we have that kind of approach?

[Karen Ellis]

I can't talk about individual people's mindsets. But the way things are supposed to be done is on merit, fairly and transparently for all to see.

[Daryl Kramp, Conservative, Prince Edward—Hastings, ON]

Is it an expectation or is it written?

[Karen Ellis]

Do you mean in terms of how every individual position...?

[Daryl Kramp, Conservative, Prince Edward—Hastings, ON]

Do we have an actual policy so people understand that, or is it understood that we have an overall policy of fairness and so everybody--

[Karen Ellis]

It's in the legislation that the values are access, fairness, and transparency. There is flexibility for deputies and their departments to figure out what staffing strategies they want to use for any case. As you know, one of Madam Barrados' key functions is auditing the staffing actions and strategies that are done in departments. She and colleagues who work for her have always said that if a department has shown that they have a really good plan and good justification for why they've chosen a certain approach, that's good enough for them if there was thoughtful reflection.

You're trying to bring in a big new regime, and Madam Barrados herself has talked about the length of time it takes to bring in a big change like that. We're making progress, but the bottom line is that the staffing strategies have to be thought through, sensible, and live to the values--

[Daryl Kramp, Conservative, Prince Edward—Hastings, ON]

I'm going to run out of time, so pardon me for interrupting. I have one other quick question.

Obviously under your responsibilities for human resources planning the one issue that's come before this committee a number times through various departments is people getting paid. Serious concern has been registered with the payroll advisers that files aren't even attended to for up to two years, etc., without even having a response back. Some people think this situation is out of control or calamitous; other people say it's really not that bad. This is something the committee really has to get its head around.

I'd like your assessment of the perceived or alleged crisis in payroll advisory management right now.

[Karen Ellis]

I have to tell you that I'm not able to give you a view or assessment on that, because I really don't look after that file. But I believe Madam Boudrias has appeared before you and may be invited to come back to explore that issue with you. The compensation group is under stress and pressure with the workload, as it is with some other groups. I know that a lot of attention is being paid to that particular group, and I think it is worthy of further discussion by you and your committee, but with the right person.

[Daryl Kramp, Conservative, Prince Edward—Hastings, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Ms. Folco.

[Raymonde Folco, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Ms. Ellis, could you please send the chair a comparative table? Earlier, you said that some departments were meeting expectations satisfactorily, while others were meeting them less so. I would like to see the figures supporting that statement.

I have another question on visible minorities. In 2000, the public service established a program called Embracing Change. The program set goals, or targets, for visible minorities, such as a 1:5 ratio for external recruitment.

First, do you have any figures showing how much progress has been made towards meeting the targets of that program in the public service? Second, how is the program Embracing Change doing? What sort of efforts are you making to further its aims?

[Karen Ellis]

Thank you, Ms. Folco.

First, the list of departments and their employment equity performance was published in The Hill Times last summer, because a request had been made to that effect. We can share that information quite easily, because it is in the public domain.

Second, the program Embracing Change was in place for five years, and is now terminated. We did not fully achieve the goals of the program. That was set out in our annual report on employment equity, which is submitted to Parliament each year. We have clearly made progress with respect to the program, but not enough.

Our current efforts are focused on the four pillars for renewal of the public service: planning, recruitment, employee development...

[Raymonde Folco, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

I'm sorry, but I will interrupt because I have only limited time.

I do see a more general renewal within the public service. There are always waves of renewal. However, I note that the renewals give priority to women, disabled persons and aboriginals. I agree with all that, but whenever we come to visible minorities, it seems that there is yet another renewal, and we start all over again. That is the impression one can get when it comes to visible minorities.

I feel that the chair is about to interrupt me. I would ask you to make sure that visible minorities are not forgotten in the phase you are now entering. I am not asking you to make visible minorities your top priority, but to put them somewhere on your list, so that we can move forward.

[Karen Ellis]

I agree with you. Visible minorities are a very important priority. I deal with the central agency, and work with many public service managers who deal with the issue. We consider visible minorities very important; they are just as important as the other priorities. We have to formulate strategies to ensure there are no gaps. We have made progress—I don't want to give the impression that we have made none. In general, all figures for employment maintenance and employment equity groups have increased over the past few years, and that increase is being maintained. We still need to continue our efforts, however, in order to improve the results.

[Raymonde Folco, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

I am eager to see your figures.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Thank you, Ms. Folco.

I think I'll go to you, Mr. Brown, seeing as Mr. Warkentin isn't here. We'll just switch you.

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

Thank you.

I'd like to touch on a point that Mr. Angus raised about the geographical dispersement of jobs. In the riding that I represent, Barrie, we have 0.2% of the federal jobs in the public service. One suggestion is that relocation to regions away from large urban centres would be a way to renew the workforce at a lower cost, given the typically lower turnover rate and lower cost of living there.

I know you mentioned to Mr. Angus that obviously the location of jobs is a political decision, but does the Public Service Agency have an opinion on whether that strategy would work in terms of having a lower turnover rate?

[Karen Ellis]

As a public servant, I really can't venture an opinion on a question like that, but what I would say to you, again, is that there are different reasons for different kinds of turnover and movement in the system. What's really important for us is to get a handle, department by department and unit by unit, on what's happening in that workforce.

If there is some flexibility, for operational reasons, for departments to make some decisions around where they locate some of their workforce, that would have a place in our thinking. But as to the decisions about geographic location and other major decisions, that's nothing I can really comment on. Those really are decisions of the government of the day.

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

But has that option ever been considered? Has political discretion ever been presented and looked at as an option by the Public Service Agency?

[Karen Ellis]

I really don't know. I personally have not been involved in anything like that, so I really couldn't comment, I'm sorry.

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

Okay, thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Mr. Warkentin.