Government Operations Committee on Feb. 12th, 2008

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

I do not want to prolong the meeting unduly, but I would just like to point out two things to Mr. Kramp. First, we were told that the Government of Canada had already started to prepare part of the budget using accrual accounting. Do you remember that?

The problem is that we get overall budgets submitted to us using the accrual method whereas, in the departments, that is not the case and they continue to use the cash method. For me, it is important mainly because we cannot see that a program no longer exists. Let's imagine, for example, that we free up a million dollars for the Correctional Service of Canada for a series of programs as part of their expected operations. Three or six months later, we look at the figures and approve a supplementary budget without knowing for sure whether programs that no longer exist have completely disappeared from their overall budget. For me, this is important.

You may tell me that the amounts are small, but they are amounts that could add up to a huge surplus at year-end. I feel that we must make sure that the departments also work by the accrual method, Mr. Kramp, and not by cash accounting. The government must change all at once and bring a budget to us. At present, figures may be wrong. This is important to me.

[Daryl Kramp, Conservative, Prince Edward—Hastings, ON]

Actually, the very problem that you've intimated--being able to delegate down through all the full departmental concurrence instead of just simply being an overall government strategy--and their ability to enact this were demonstrated very clearly to be a significant problem for the provinces, both Ontario and B.C., but they were able to work through it. They put forward a number of suggestions. So I think that recognition has gone to Treasury Board.

I agree with you that we can't just simply have it at a level. It has to be carried down through. That's why agreeing to implement accrual accounting is one thing, but doing it is something different. There is definitely going to have to be a very, very serious plan of action and a full layout and timeframes and allocations. One of the problems that was brought forward, of course, was even the training of staff, because the accrual accounting process is a very difficult thing to follow. I certainly have had a great deal of difficulty trying to follow it, and all the departmental staff as well aren't necessarily trained in that capacity. So it's not going to happen overnight. But there's no doubt that unless the problem is identified, it won't be addressed. So I think we have to keep our eye on that ball and press Treasury Board to implement that type of process, but we'll have to see what they're coming forward with.

I hope it's a complete long-term, full package, but I don't know what we're going to see.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

In that case, Madam Chair, could we mention it in our report—if we have the time to write a report—and mention a few things like the fact that a subcommittee worked on it and then it came back to us? Is it possible to lean in that direction? Our committee has dealt with a lot of matters. I imagine that the report will report on three, four or five matters it has dealt with. Is that right?

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

We could do that before they respond, but, after all the work we have done, I think it is preferable to see how they are going to respond and what they are going to say. They have the Auditor General's recommendations. If the committee wishes, we could pass a motion asking the President of the Treasury Board to pay specific attention to the points raised by the Auditor General in her report. We could do that, but frankly, we should wait until the President of the Treasury Board responds. We have done essentially everything we can do up to this point. It is always possible to pass a motion asking him to pay particular attention to the Auditor General's letter.

You have the floor, Mr. Kramp.

[Daryl Kramp, Conservative, Prince Edward—Hastings, ON]

One thing we could do that would pre-empt all of this, recognizing the Auditor General's emphasis on accrual accounting over the years and her desired expression to see this implemented in totality, is after Treasury Board makes a submission to this committee and/or to Parliament, I think it would be appropriate to have the Auditor General back to this committee to offer her assessment on the recommendations the Treasury Board has come forward with. She will be into the nuts and bolts of the issue and will have a better understanding than we will. We have the overview, per se, but I think she might be a beneficial witness to pull forward at that time to offer assessment.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

That is fine, thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Merci.

Are there any further subjects to deal with?

Seeing none, I'll adjourn the meeting. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen.