Government Operations Committee on Feb. 14th, 2008

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Thank you.

Mr. Silva.

[Mario Silva, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I also want to thank our witness and congratulate Heritage Canada Foundation for the amazing work they've been doing over the years.

I think you're absolutely right that the collection we have of buildings and heritage assets across the country is quite fundamental to our country's essence of what we are as a people and as a nation. It's really the soul of what Canada is all about. If we destroy that, we really destroy our history. And it's very important that we do everything possible to maintain them.

I understand your recommendations and your concerns. There is a need to be more proactive, certainly to make all efforts. But beyond that, I like your suggestion about the statutory protection of the covenant, because I think you're right, just to make the best efforts is not always good enough and you're always worried about what's going to happen to these historic buildings down the road.

I think we don't do enough, for whatever reason, compared to most western countries. I was born in Europe, and I find we just don't have this great attachment to our historic buildings as we should. And every time we spend money, people always misconstrue it, even the media, and we politicians do it ourselves. We're constantly critical, saying that it's just wasting money. It's not wasting money; it's really protecting our history and what Canada is all about. It's really important that we spend a good amount of time dealing with heritage issues, because it's so fundamentally important.

Even, for example, on renovating 24 Sussex Drive or Rideau Hall, people get very worried about that. I find it appalling that people don't understand that this belongs to all Canadians. It doesn't belong to the Prime Minister or the Governor General; it belongs to all of us for all time.

I get very saddened when I hear comments from people that belittle our history and belittle these important monuments we have, and when there's not enough attention paid to them, because they don't belong to one individual; they belong to all of us for all time, for present generations and future generations as well.

I really like the idea you're suggesting about a covenant. Could you give us some practical ways we can make sure this is within our agreements?

[Natalie Bull]

There are certainly organizations set up to design and manage covenants. One of the issues with putting a covenant on a property and selling it is that the covenant really has no value unless it's being monitored.

Often when a building is sold, a portion of the proceeds of the sale are set aside to pay for the expertise that would be involved in monitoring changes, reviewing changes, and confirming them over time. Really, even with a covenant, the goal is not to freeze the building in time forever; it's really about management of change. We really promote the sustainable reuse of buildings. Buildings have to change and move with us into the future, but it does require expertise to make sure those changes are made in the most appropriate way.

[Mario Silva, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Have you also been watching what's been happening in U.S.? You talked quite a bit about there being heritage protection for buildings in the U.S. Has that been working successfully? Have you been in touch with some of your counterparts in the U.S.?

[Natalie Bull]

In the U.S. there is statutory protection of federal buildings. One of the most important components of that is the requirement for a review process that gives the public an opportunity to comment on changes or proposed demolition of buildings. That's a key piece of the puzzle. It's about engaging Canadians and giving Canadians a voice in managing these buildings, which are really public assets.

[Mario Silva, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Thank you.

Madame Bourgeois.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Good morning, madam. First I want to congratulate you on your magazine, which I always read very carefully. I think it's quite special to have such a good heritage magazine.

In your presentation, you said that there was no legislation on historic sites in Canada. Is that what you're seeking?

[Natalie Bull]

There's no legislation for buildings belonging to the federal government.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

There's no legislation?

[Natalie Bull]

That's correct. There's the Federal Heritage Buildings Review Office, but that's more of a policy. So it's given less respect and investment than an act.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

You seem to say that, in the case of the sale of a building that could be considered as historic or as a heritage building, there is no provision for its preservation.

[Natalie Bull]

The current policy attempts, as far as possible, to protect the building for the future. The building may be designated under a provincial act, such as the Ontario Heritage Trust. The government has a duty to make this effort, but it is not required to do so.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Is there a Canadian register of heritage buildings?

[Natalie Bull]

Yes.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Are those buildings quite frequently sold to private interests?

[Natalie Bull]

These buildings of all kinds belong to both the private and public sectors and are protected by a provincial or municipal statute.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Ultimately, the only protection is provincial statutes.

[Natalie Bull]

It's possible to get an easement. It's also possible for the building to be protected under a provincial act.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

France has an outstanding heritage, which it tries to preserve. Last year, however, it said that was costing a fortune. I don't know how it manages to allocate funding for its maintenance. If the government said it wanted to preserve our heritage but that it would be very costly to do so, would it be worth the trouble?

[Natalie Bull]

It's worth the trouble. There are resources. I don't know what there is in France, but the United States offers tax incentives to the private sector to encourage it to invest in historic buildings. There's also a federal endowment fund that makes money available to non-profit organizations to encourage them to preserve historic buildings. We're talking about carrots and sticks. Statutes prohibit certain practices, but there has to be funding to encourage conservation. In Canada, there are no national funds or tax incentives at the federal level, two programs that the Heritage Canada Foundation has been encouraging for a long time.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Do you encourage public-private cooperation? I'll give you an example. I went to Montebello to see Louis-Joseph Papineau's house. That's my heritage. I was so surprised to see that I couldn't visit the house because I hadn't paid the $2 admission. It's not so much the $2 amount that's important to me, but the fact that the built heritage can't be put at the service of the public free of charge. If a family of four doesn't pay $8 or $10, it can't visit this heritage. It's a private business that's managing this well-known heritage site.

What do you think of that?

[Natalie Bull]

Some buildings are financially self-sufficient, like the one you've just referred to. There are also a number of buildings, such as museums, that are open to the public. Without revenue sources, it's hard to ensure the survival of these buildings because they're expensive to maintain.

We encourage the sustainable use of buildings. Buildings need a market. It's very interesting to adapt buildings to modern uses. We have a large collection of very special buildings, such as Louis-Joseph Papineau's house. A number of these buildings should be used less and conserve more as museums. Once again, funding is needed to support these activities.

As regards the question of public-private funding, there are some very promising options. We're also studying the possibility of establishing a fund and encouraging the private sector to make donations and to take part in the restoration of heritage sites, to take advantage of sponsorships and so on.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Perfect, thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Mr. Albrecht.