Government Operations Committee on April 1st, 2008

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I didn't need to. There was no--

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

--and now the city officials are saying it's too bad you never bothered to speak with them.

So did you or did you not speak to the city before you went to the media?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

We did. We did communicate our decision to the city before it was announced publicly.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

How much before? Twenty minutes?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I'd have to check. What I can tell you is that I did not need to go back to the city for clarification because it was black and white. The legal advice I received from the professional members of the public service, the Department of Justice lawyers, backed up exactly what was in the contract. It explicitly said that if the federal government doesn't sign the contribution agreement, you can get a 60-day extension.

I had no questions to the city. They had already lied to me four times. I didn't need to go back again.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

But if you had asked the city, the city would have clarified what was in that contract. That's what their internal memo says, that you did not go back.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I think the city wanted to maybe have a fifth or sixth go at it. I didn't need to.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Well, it seems to me, Minister, that you felt you hit the jackpot. You stepped in--

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I caught them in a lie.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

--and you went to the media. You're not really clear whether you let them know just before you went into the CTV studios or, as their memos say, they watched it on TV and found out that you'd dropped a cluster bomb in the middle of the election campaign.

To get back to my basic question about your political prudence here, in the city of Ottawa you were clearly acting as a political minister, you clearly intervened, and you clearly took it out in a media campaign rather than dealing with the city. My question is, what kind of political judgment is that?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I did not have any questions for the city about the contract. It was black and white. It was crystal clear. I had been misled.

The clause explicitly allowed--not could be used, or could be tailored to use, but explicitly allowed--for a 60-day delay. You have that section of it before you, I'm sure. You can get your own legal judgment as to whether I'm right. But that was the black and white legal argument I got from the lawyers.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Well, I'm looking at the internal city documents that say that if you had contacted them, if you had asked any questions, they would have clarified that your decision to apply the provisions for financial close for a use never contemplated “does not relate to the high-level due diligence review we understood from last week's media transcripts that Treasury Board was undertaking”.

Again, that leads me back to why you told the city you were doing due diligence, why you told the media you were doing due diligence, and you told the committee that you were only looking for one thing, looking for that clause.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

That was my due diligence.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

You told us you hit the jackpot when you found that clause, and you stopped that project from going ahead.

Why didn't you just tell the city in the beginning that this was what your whole intent was?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I explicitly wanted to see where it said that there was a deadline that the city had told me. They had changed their tune five separate times. I asked to see it in black and white, and I did; it explicitly said there was a 60-day delay.

You have that paper in front of you. You can go to any lawyer who will confirm that.

That was the black and white, 100% legal advice I got from the Department of Justice officials. I said, “Great, this project is approved, subject to council, and never has to come back before Treasury Board again.”

But I can tell you that if I've asked something five times, I get five separate, different answers, I call them on it, and I get it in black and white that I was misled, then I don't need to go back and get it for a sixth time.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

In the CFRA interview with you on October 5, the host says:

Are you aware that the mayor was trying to get you all day yesterday on the phone and he was told you were unavailable?

Were you just not interested in talking to the city?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I talked to the city on more than 10 occasions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Mr. Angus, could you table that City of Ottawa memo with the committee?

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Yes, I can.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

I'd like that very much. Thank you.

Mr. Holland.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Minister, what were the names of the Justice lawyers that you spoke with and got advice from? Would you be willing to provide us with the briefing notes?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I don't have them in front of me.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

You don't remember who those lawyers were?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

The lawyers I met with 18 months ago? I meet with probably 100 people a day, and I don't have the names of the Justice lawyers in front of me.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Would you ever be able to provide that to committee?