Government Operations Committee on April 3rd, 2008

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

I call the meeting to order.

Before we start, I want to let you know what happened. Minister Fortier was to come today before the committee to speak to the estimates. Yesterday morning the clerk received a call, which I received shortly afterwards, telling us that Mr. Fortier was quite ill, that he had lost his voice, and could not appear before the committee. It's normal. People do get sick sometimes.

We're very pleased that the Privy Council Office decided on very short notice to come before us. They knew they'd have to come at some point, but they didn't have to do it within 24 hours. I thank you very much for being so collaborative to agree to come and fill in the void.

We will turn the mike over to you. If you'd like to, please introduce yourselves, then make a statement of up to ten minutes, and then there will be questions.

[Marilyn MacPherson, Assistant Deputy Minister, Corporate Services, Privy Council Office]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I'm Marilyn MacPherson, and I'm the assistant deputy minster for corporate services for the Privy Council Office. I have with me Marc O'Sullivan, assistant secretary for senior personnel and special projects.

I'll start with my statement.

Good morning, Madam Chair. I am pleased to appear today before the Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates.

I am accompanied by Mr. Marc O'Sullivan. We are appearing before you today to talk about the 2008-2009 main estimates for the Privy Council Office.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Because the English is not forthcoming, I gather some of the members....

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

I find it helpful to follow along in the copy.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

I've got an English copy here, if you'd like. We'll have it photocopied so everyone can have it.

You can proceed. Sorry about that.

[Marilyn MacPherson]

PCO's last appearance before this committee was in November 2007, regarding the 2007-2008 supplementary estimates.

The mandate of the Privy Council Office is to serve Canada and Canadians by providing the best professional, non-partisan advice and support to the Prime Minister, the ministers within the Prime Minister's portfolio and the cabinet. PCO supports the development of the government's policy agenda, coordinates responses to issues facing the government and the country, and supports the effective operation of cabinet. As the head of the public service, the Clerk of the Privy Council and secretary to the cabinet serves as the principal link between the Prime Minister and the public service.

The Privy Council Office reports directly to the Prime Minister and is headed by the Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet. The main roles of PCO are to provide professional, non-partisan advice to the Prime Minister and other ministers in the Prime Minister's portfolio and to cabinet on questions of national, intergovernmental, and international importance; to manage the cabinet's decision-making system by challenging and coordinating departmental policy, conducting analysis, and providing secretariat services to the cabinet and cabinet committees; to provide advice on the appropriate structure and organization of the government and its entities; to advance the development of the government's agenda across federal departments and agencies and with external stakeholders; to help foster a high performing and accountable public service for the 21st century; to manage the appointment process for senior positions in federal departments and crown corporations and agencies; and finally, to provide administrative support to the Prime Minister's Office, ministers' offices within the Prime Minister's portfolio, commissions of inquiry, task forces, and other independent bodies considering matters associated with good governance in Canada.

PCO has four priorities for 2008-2009.

First, in order to support the Prime Minister in exercising his overall leadership responsibility, PCO will create and sustain the unity of the ministry by providing a range of advice, as well as fulfilling the cabinet secretariat role. It will continue to play a central role in assisting the Prime Minister and cabinet in enhancing the overall management, transparency and accountability of government while ensuring that the objectives of improved efficiency and efficacy are met.

Secondly, PCO will provide advice and support the development and implementation of the government's focused policy and legislative agenda. It will also identify emerging issues to inform cabinet's deliberations, and through long-term strategic thinking provide advice for the government's forward-looking agenda.

Thirdly, to support management and accountability of government, PCO will continue to play a central role in assisting the Prime Minister and cabinet in enhancing the overall management, transparency, and accountability of government; will ensure strategic management of the Governor in Council population through open, competency-based selection and appointment processes, enhanced leadership development and talent management programs, and fair and appropriate compensation policies and practices; and will support the renewal of the public service to ensure strong leadership capacity at all levels, now and into the future.

Finally, achieving excellence in management requires ongoing strengthening of PCO's internal management practices, such as implementing a risk-based integrated business planning process, a performance measurement framework, an internal audit policy, and an emergency management and business continuity program.

PCO main estimates for 2008–09 total $123 million, of which 80% is spent on providing advice and support to the Prime Minister and ministers of his portfolio; 16% is spent on providing policy advice and secretariat support to cabinet and cabinet committees; 3% is spent on providing overall leadership and direction to the public service in support of the government's agenda; and 1% is spent on providing the commissions of inquiry with administrative and financial support.

Because we only learned of our appearance before this committee yesterday morning, we have had limited time to prepare for your questions. Therefore if there's any information you require that we do not have readily at hand, we'll be pleased to provide it to you within a day or two.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Thank you very much.

We will go to Mr. Holland, for the first seven minutes.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to the witness for appearing today on very short notice.

Because I wasn't anticipating this coming forward, I'm just going to go to a couple of things that jumped out at me. The first was the Public Appointments Commission Secretariat. That's not an active secretariat. That's been, obviously, a point of some contention before this committee. There was an attempt to appoint somebody, but the committee disagreed with that and the government simply hasn't followed it up.

I'm trying to understand. When I look at the ministry's summary for the Public Appointments Commission Secretariat, the estimates for 2007-08 are over $1 million, and then again, in 2008-09, over $1 million. I'm wondering if you could explain that, given that it's not an active secretariat.

[Marilyn MacPherson]

There are actually individuals now working in the secretariat. For a period of time there was no one in the secretariat. We now have two individuals who are employed and working in the secretariat. The estimates are based on the expectation that there will be someone appointed as the commissioner. Therefore, the estimates fairly represent the estimate of what they will need, as we know it, at this time.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Maybe you could break down where exactly this $1 million is coming from. You say you have two people who are working there now, and I imagine they're not getting paid $500,000 each. If not, maybe I'm in the wrong line of work.

Secondly, you said you're anticipating our finally getting a public appointments commissioner. That's news to us. Do you have anything on that? Are you being told things about when we might see that happen?

[Marilyn MacPherson]

Maybe I will rephrase. I haven't been told we're not getting one, so therefore it continues to be an estimates item.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Okay.

On the other item, could you break down that $1 million for me?

[Marilyn MacPherson]

I certainly can. For salaries and wages, the amount is $700,000. That's $697,000 exactly, and that would be for 4 FTEs, which is what we're estimating.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Those four full-time positions would include the commissioner himself or herself.

[Marilyn MacPherson]

No, this is just the secretariat itself. It's the four people who would be in the secretariat.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Out of curiosity, what do they do when they don't have a boss?

[Marc O'Sullivan, Acting Assistant Secretary to the Cabinet, Senior Personnel and Special Projects Secretariat, Privy Council Office]

Just to give a bit of context, when the commission was first established by order in council, before the issue of Mr. Morgan's nomination came before this committee, the secretariat was established quickly. We brought in Mr. Peter Harrison, who was the executive director at the time. The idea was to get it up and running as quickly as possible.

Then, following the issue of Mr. Morgan's nomination and as the commission was held in abeyance, we nevertheless endeavoured to ensure that, at the time the government would want to proceed with the commission, everything would be in place to be able to proceed rapidly. That involved doing a lot of examination of other jurisdictions that have similar systems in place—Alberta, British Columbia, and the U.K. It involved consultations with departments and agencies. Also, there was work done on other peripheral issues. For example, Mr. Harrison did some work on the issue of nominations at the IRB, at the request of the minister.

We toned it down at one point, because it had four staff and we said there wasn't enough work for four people. But we've kept basically one senior person and one support staff to continue the preparatory work, in terms of drafting a code of conduct, drafting the plans, because this would be a massive undertaking, a massive change in ensuring that there are selection processes run not just for heads of agencies, but for all positions filled by the GIC, which in a typical year can be as many as 1,000. So 1,000 selection processes are quite an endeavour.

Right now, we have that minimum staff of, as I said, one senior analyst and one support staff who are continuing the work to ensure that if and when the government wants to proceed with the commission, we're able to do so very quickly.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

I guess my problem there is that if you have two people who are working full-time, there's only so much preparatory work that can be done. That's my first question. At what point is the preparatory work done? There's only so much consulting of other jurisdictions and only so many codes of conduct that can be written before you just start twiddling your thumbs waiting for a commissioner to be appointed. So how long will that go on before you're going to say to these two people, “Well, we're just going to have to fold up shop here for a while”?

The next question would be with respect to the 2007-08 estimates, which are before us now. If there are only two people working there, why are we looking at a figure of over $1 million?

[Marc O'Sullivan]

It's based on the anticipation of having a secretariat operating at full complement, rather than just the minimum staff right now.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

But the fiscal year 2007-08 is finished.

[Marilyn MacPherson]

One thing that could possibly happen here, too, is if there's a commissioner actually appointed and the secretariat needs to get into operational mode very quickly, in the fact there are four FTEs, and you could actually hire, for example, eight people for the last part of the year to really get things moving. So it's at the equivalent of four FTEs, but you could actually staff up more than that if you needed to move quickly.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

My understanding, then, is that for the fiscal year that has just been completed, 2007-08, the reason we're seeing over $1 million there is so that you can use that unused room potentially in the current fiscal year, in 2008-09.

[Marilyn MacPherson]

No.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

I hope you didn't spend $1 million for two people in 2007-08. So why are we seeing that number in the estimates?

[Marilyn MacPherson]

You'll see the number of $1 million in 2007-08 because that is the number that was approved in the main estimates last year.