Government Operations Committee on April 15th, 2008

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

We have quorum.

Today we will be hearing from Tim McGrath, Assistant Deputy Minister, Real Property Branch, Public Works and Government Services Canada, and Ellen Stensholt, Senior General Counsel, Legal Services, Public Works and Government Services Canada.

You know how this works: we give you a few minutes for your presentation, and then we move on to questions and answers.

Mr. McGrath, you have the floor.

[Tim McGrath, Assistant Deputy Minister, Real Property Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

My name is Tim McGrath. I'm assistant deputy minister of the real property branch of the Department of Public Works and Government Services. With me, as you mentioned, is Ellen Stensholt, our department's senior legal counsel from the Department of Justice.

As members know, the crown is involved in a legal dispute with Rosdev over the management of L'Esplanade Laurier and Les Terrasses de la Chaudière complexes.

At the request of our minister's office, departmental officials were asked to brief representatives from the Prime Minister's Office on the file. At these briefings officials reviewed the chronology of key events with respect to the Government of Canada's involvement with the two complexes and explained the various areas of disagreement. These briefings were strictly informational in nature, in that officials provided factual information; there were no follow-up actions required. Let me assure the committee that we did not feel pressured in any way to take any action as a result of these meetings.

Madam Chair, my colleague and I would be pleased to answer your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Thank you, Mr. McGrath.

We'll go with Mr. Holland, for seven minutes.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I apologize, I've been feeling quite sick today.

Thank you so much to the witnesses for appearing today.

As you know, the committee was concerned because there was a lot of attention with respect to Mr. Soudas and his setting up of meetings that were arranged with PMO staff and Department of Public Works officials. So the committee had some concerns and it's been having hearings on this.

I want to get a bit of information from you about these meetings--when they occurred, and some other details, if I could. Frédéric Loiselle, the former chief of staff to Public Works Minister Fortier, told this committee that he spoke with Mr. Soudas several times about the Rosdev file, prior to face-to-face meetings that took place in August 2006 in the office of the PMO. In addition to this meeting, Mr. Loiselle told the committee that two briefings took place with department officials to go over a property file and legal ramifications.

It is our understanding, Mr. McGrath, that you led these briefings. Is that correct?

[Tim McGrath]

I was in attendance at one of the briefings only.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Can you tell us how many of these meetings took place and where they took place?

[Tim McGrath]

There were two briefings to the Prime Minister's Office, one in October, one in January. Then I recall a further briefing taking place in February. We don't believe there were any officials from the Prime Minister's Office, or I do not recall any officials from the Prime Minister's Office being in attendance at the February meeting.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Who was in attendance? Do you recall who was at this meeting?

[Tim McGrath]

At the February meeting there was me, Madam Stensholt, members of the minister's office, and then members of my own staff.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

These meetings were arranged to discuss the Rosdev case, and specifically the lawsuit between the federal government and Rosdev. Can you elaborate specifically on what was discussed at those meetings, on what took place at these meetings?

[Tim McGrath]

At the meetings themselves we presented a factual document that had a summary of the various actions between ourselves and Rosdev. All we did was describe what those actions were. So it was just very much a fact-based briefing, where we provided information concerning the suits that were in front of us.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

What was the interest? Did Mr. Soudas, in the establishment of these meetings, indicate what the interest was in holding these meetings, or what the objective was?

[Tim McGrath]

No, it wasn't established in terms of what the meetings were for, other than to provide information concerning the files themselves.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Was there a suggestion made at any time that you either drop the case or hold off on the case, or any suggestions with respect to the case at that point in time?

[Tim McGrath]

None at all.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

And you didn't feel that it was tacit by holding the meetings that there was an intention?

[Tim McGrath]

No, I didn't get that sense at all from the meetings.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Could you comment about this kind of inquiry and probing by PMO officials, and on specific relationships between the Department of Public Works and an individual contractor? It seems to me that somebody's contacting you from PMO is obviously going to carry a good deal of weight with respect to a very specific case. The individual involved was said to have strong political connections. Is that a normal occurrence? Is this something that happens regularly?

[Tim McGrath]

In fact we weren't contacted by PMO directly on the file; we were contacted by the minister's office to attend a briefing that the minister's office had arranged with our deputy minister's office.

It's not an everyday occurrence to brief people from the Prime Minister's Office in attendance; however, it's not unusual that we, as the real property experts in government, be asked from time to time to brief on different real estate files that are technical in nature. In this situation, because of the nature of the lawsuits, I guess there was a feeling that there was a requirement to brief on the technical aspects of the file.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

It may have been the minister's office that contacted you, but it was the PM's office that was setting them up, and then it was communicated to you by the minister's office that this meeting was to occur.

You say that it's unusual, and I'm wondering, did you not ask for the rationale and was none provided? This, as you say, isn't an everyday occurrence, and the Prime Minister's Office is showing a specific interest in this particular file. They gave you no rationale as to why this file and why these meetings?

[Tim McGrath]

No rationale was given to us as to why they wanted a specific briefing on this file.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Do you know anything about Michael Rosenberg, the CEO of Rosdev? Did you know anything about him prior to these meetings taking place?

[Tim McGrath]

Yes, I had met with Mr. Rosenberg on a few occasions to discuss the files.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Okay.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Mr. Moore.