Government Operations Committee on April 15th, 2008

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

Now, in regard to the Rosdev buildings, as you said, there are six fronts on which we are engaged with Rosdev. How many federal government employees are housed in the buildings we're talking about?

[Ellen Stensholt]

Thousands.

[Tim McGrath]

In the Rosdev buildings?

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

Yes.

[Tim McGrath]

There are close to 7,000 between the two assets.

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

Mark mentioned that with the JDS Uniphase building, you can understand. And what was the other example, the national...?

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

The national precinct.

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

Yes, so the NCC makes sense, and all of that.

We're talking about buildings in the second-largest city in Canada, with over 7,000 employees. So I think it's relevant to know whether or not those people are still going to be working in those buildings, or if they are going to have to commute to work. I think it's a relevant issue for the federal government in terms of its size and scope.

But in the past when you've given briefings pre-dating our government to PMO staffers and other ministries under the Liberals and the Conservatives—and Mr. Holland has set the standard on what these ought to be—I take it that those briefings have been of all shapes and sizes in terms of the files you've briefed others on.

[Ellen Stensholt]

Certainly. Sometimes the briefings were on forthcoming legislation; I would do the technical legal briefings on the status of legislation and why it was drafted a certain way. Sometimes the briefings were on major litigation files, involving tens of millions of dollars of taxpayers' money—

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

And the status of thousands of employees in terms of where they worked.

[Tim McGrath]

In fact, at the time, Rosdev was our largest landlord.

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

I'm nearing the end of my time, but I guess the macro picture of this for taxpayers is the allegation that there's this file out there in which Dimitri Soudas has intervened and tried to torque things, and so on.

Our government was elected on January 28, 2006, and this file and the status of its litigation predate our government by a number of years. These have continued or been ongoing. Has this file changed in any way whatsoever over the past two years?

[Ellen Stensholt]

No. We've had to retain outside counsel, as we lost our Department of Justice litigator. Court dates have been set, and we're moving slowly but surely toward trial.

The normal process is going on. The court is doing its thing, in the normal way.

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

Right.

I have no other comment.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Thank you, Mr. Moore. We can put you up for the next Conservative slot.

Mr. Silva.

[Mario Silva, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

I don't think I have any further questions; a lot of the questions have already been raised.

I just want to get assurance from you again that you feel there was nothing unusual about having a staff person from the Prime Minister in that particular meeting dealing with an issue on which litigation was ongoing in this very sensitive file. Do you feel at all that there was anything unusual or inappropriate about having the Prime Minister's staff person present at that meeting?

[Tim McGrath]

I would say there was no interaction whatsoever with the officials from the Prime Minister's Office on this particular file in the meetings we had. As Ellen points out, they didn't even ask any questions.

It's not an everyday occurrence that we brief the Prime Minister's Office. We've stated that earlier. But on technical files and in this case, with Rosdev being our largest landlord, it's not unusual to have to provide a briefing on sensitive files.

[Ellen Stensholt]

Somebody suggested today having a one-page piece of paper, but on a technical litigation matter, where people really don't understand the issues, they can read that one-page piece of paper and still want to talk to and ask questions of the author of the document. The status of litigation is not necessarily self-evident.

I might write a line stating that mediation was attempted and failed. Somebody might want to know, was it a serious attempt; was it our idea, or whose idea was it; and why did it fail or what happened? I find that perfectly normal. As a senior lawyer, I'm accustomed to giving technical legal briefings on litigation files; it's my job.

[Mario Silva, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Mr. Albrecht.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I thank you again for clarifying these issues for us. As you indicated, it's very complex. I don't pretend to understand it, but I just want to confirm that there were these two short meetings. The technical briefings were offered, no requests for action ensued, and there was no pressure at all for you to change your tactics. In fact, PWGSC has not even considered changing its position.

Ms. Stensholt just commented that the case continues to move slowly and surely towards resolution. And I would say, in the interests of all of us here and all Canadians, I hope that continues to move expeditiously towards resolution.

The question I have relates to Madame Faille's point, where she tied the sale and leaseback question into the Rosdev file. I just wanted to ask whether the Rosdev company was at all involved in the sale and leaseback initiative. There were no connections with the sale and leaseback offers and Rosdev.

[Tim McGrath]

No, there were not.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

I think that needs to be made clear so that we don't mix those two issues at this committee.

Thank you. That's all now.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Thank you, Mr. Albrecht.

Ms. Bourgeois.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

First, Ms. Stensholt and Mr. McGrath, I would like to remind you that Dimitri Soudas of the Prime Minister's Office was here on February 28. During that meeting, Mr. Holland asked him when the subsequent meeting with Public Works and Government Services officials took place. Mr. Soudas said that a meeting took place some time in August 2006. That is why I was so surprised to see that Mr. McGrath was not aware of the meeting.

During the same meeting, Mr. Loiselle said that there had been a meeting in August attended by Mr. Béland. In response to Ms. Faille's question, he said that subsequent meetings with officials had taken place. That is another reason I'm so surprised to learn that Mr. McGrath was not aware of them.

That being said, I have a question for Mr. McGrath. According to our researcher's notes, the government said that severance pay was not part of the contract, that the government's decision to exercise its option to buy l'Esplanade Laurier— I expect that all of the Rosdev Group's demands are based on documents that support one party's case or the other's.