Evidence of meeting #24 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was meeting.
A recording is available from Parliament.
10 a.m.
Senior General Counsel, Legal Services Branch, Public Works and Government Services Canada
On contracts.
10 a.m.
Senior General Counsel, Legal Services Branch, Public Works and Government Services Canada
Yes.
10 a.m.
Bloc
Diane Bourgeois Bloc Terrebonne—Blainville, QC
Are the contracts with the Rosdev Group similar to those with Larco Investments?
10 a.m.
Senior General Counsel, Legal Services Branch, Public Works and Government Services Canada
No.
10 a.m.
Bloc
10 a.m.
Senior General Counsel, Legal Services Branch, Public Works and Government Services Canada
The contract was written 35 years ago. The business world has changed in 35 years, Ma'am.
10 a.m.
Bloc
Diane Bourgeois Bloc Terrebonne—Blainville, QC
Yes, but if I understand correctly, the Rosdev Group bought a contract that you had signed with another company.
10 a.m.
Senior General Counsel, Legal Services Branch, Public Works and Government Services Canada
Yes, with Olympia & York. I think the first contract was signed in 1978.
10 a.m.
Senior General Counsel, Legal Services Branch, Public Works and Government Services Canada
That was 30 years ago.
10 a.m.
Senior General Counsel, Legal Services Branch, Public Works and Government Services Canada
Yes.
10 a.m.
Bloc
Diane Bourgeois Bloc Terrebonne—Blainville, QC
The Rosdev Group bought those two contracts. There was a clause stipulating that agreements with the government were to stand.
10 a.m.
Senior General Counsel, Legal Services Branch, Public Works and Government Services Canada
Yes. Unfortunately, I do not know all of the details.
I believe it was purchased from a trustee in bankruptcy. In what I've been reading to prepare for this meeting, I think there was a trustee. Olympia & York, at least, I believe had a trustee. It talks about Rosdev purchasing from a trustee, which says to me that there must have been a bankruptcy of Olympia & York.
I was doing international trade law. I don't know. I wasn't doing this at the time.
10 a.m.
Bloc
Diane Bourgeois Bloc Terrebonne—Blainville, QC
Ms. Stensholt and Mr. McGraw, my point is that when the federal government buildings were sold to Larco, Mr. McGrath and other officials were asked several times if there could be problems with future renters, with new owners. We were told that that had never happened, but nobody ever told us about problems with the Rosdev Group.
It would have been wiser and more transparent, for this committee, to tell us about all of the problems with the Rosdev Group. That way, it could have been part of the study of the sale of public buildings and the consequences of such sales.
Mr. McGrath, you played a major role and you told the committee that there were no problems and that the building sale had to go through. What do you have to say about that?
10 a.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Real Property Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services
I'd like to respond to the several questions or comments that were made.
First, with regard to the August meeting, there were no departmental officials at any August meeting. The only way we know about any August meeting between Mr. Soudas and other people....
10 a.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Real Property Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services
It was a statement you made earlier, and I just want to clarify.
We were not aware of that meeting, because it did not involve departmental officials. Even from the reports in The Globe and Mail it was clear, from what I read, that it was members of the minister's office and members of the Prime Minister's Office at that initial meeting. There were the two subsequent meetings with departmental officials, which I described, and then the third one with the minister's office.
As to whether we raised the question about Rosdev in previous discussions, we were asked on a number of occasions by this committee how we were going to deal with the property management by Larco, the new owner. Because of lessons learned from situations like Rosdev, the documentation has been changed and updated to ensure that we have control over the property management agreements.
There's a great deal of due diligence going on so that Larco is able to prove that they have the capacity to manage these assets. We have not, as of yet, turned any assets over to Larco for property management. There's agreement that the current property management company would stay in place until April 1, 2009, until such time as Larco is able to demonstrate the ability to manage the assets. We're doing that due diligence right now.
Also, the documentation between the parties is extremely clear in terms of remedy situations and remedies that exist, which were very much missing from the situation with Rosdev.
So we used our lessons learned from the Rosdev situation to better the documentation on the sale and leaseback initiative we undertook.
10:05 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Diane Marleau
Okay.
There are no further questions. Seeing no further questions, we'll thank you for coming.
We'll take a short break, and then we'll go back to our agenda. We'll take a two-minute break.
10:10 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Diane Marleau
We'll reconvene and turn to the second item on our list.
Mr. Holland.
10:10 a.m.
Liberal
Mark Holland Liberal Ajax—Pickering, ON
Thank you, Madam Chair.
As I indicated in the previous meeting, I thought it would be a good idea for us to take some time and look at the issue overall, as opposed to dealing with procurement and one-offs. I think we've all had a number of issues brought to our attention, either in procurement in general or access of small and medium-sized businesses to the federal procurement process.
That's the motion, and I understand there's a suggestion to perhaps have a steering committee meeting or a separate meeting to go over the dates and witnesses. I'm certainly amenable to that. I don't have a problem with it.
I intentionally left the witness list out of the motion because I suspect that different members of the committee are going to have different witnesses they would like to have appear. I think this gives us the opportunity to think about it for a day or two and then come forward with witnesses that we feel would be appropriate. That's why I've deliberately left that witness list out of the motion.
I think it's a good suggestion that we have a steering committee meeting or an alternate meeting, and I look forward to that happening in the near future, if possible.
