Evidence of meeting #11 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was departments.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Alister Smith  Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
Richard Botham  Director, Microeconomic Policy Analysis, Economic Development and Corporate Finance, Department of Finance
Bob Hirst  Executive Director, Assets and Acquired Services, Government Operations Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
Shirley Jen  Senior Director, Real Property and Material Policy Division, Treasury Board Secretariat
Lydia Scratch  Committee Researcher

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Derek Lee

I call the meeting to order.

Colleagues, we're pursuing today an issue that I know the committee has followed closely in the past. A number of members would like to look at the issue a bit more closely. It pertains to expenditure review and corporate assets management. Those two items are separate in the views of many public officials, but some in the committee view them as related.

Today we have Alister Smith, assistant secretary, expenditure management sector, back again from Treasury Board to assist us in clarifying the issues. Thank you again for being here. Joining him are Shirley Jen, senior director of real property and material policy division, and Bob Hirst, executive director, assets and acquired services, government operations sector. From the Department of Finance, which has a window on this set of policies, we have Richard Botham, director. He has a very long title, which includes the words “microeconomic policy”. I'm going to pause there, but thank you all for coming. I know that at least one of you will have an opening statement.

First on the list is Treasury Board, so if it's appropriate to your needs, Mr. Smith, you could lead off.

11:10 a.m.

Alister Smith Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I would defer to my colleague from the Department of Finance on the corporate assets side to lead off, and then perhaps later I could provide some opening remarks on the strategic review, and we could get into that.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Derek Lee

Okay, that seems fair enough.

Mr. Botham, you'll be leading off. Thank you.

11:10 a.m.

Richard Botham Director, Microeconomic Policy Analysis, Economic Development and Corporate Finance, Department of Finance

Thank you.

I am a director in the Economic Development and Corporate Finance Branch at Finance Canada. I am here today to speak to the review of corporate assets that was first announced in the 2008 fall update and discussed further in Budget 2009.

The Corporate Asset Management Review is an ongoing review mechanism that expands the expenditure management system to the ownership and mandate of corporate assets and complements the strategic reviews of departments. Corporate assets include enterprise crown corporations, real property and other holdings. Other holdings include interests where the government competes directly with private enterprises, earns income from property or performs a commercial activity; it includes crown corporations that are not self-sustaining even though they are of a commercial nature, as well as similar holdings that are not currently structured as a crown corporation.

Budget 2009 indicates that in its first year, the Corporate Asset Management Review will focus on selected assets in the portfolios of the Minister of Finance, the Minister of Indian and Northern Affairs, the Minister of Natural Resources and the Minister of Transport, Infrastructure and Communities. Over time, all corporate assets will be reviewed.

Departments subject to the review, in collaboration with the Department of Finance, are developing a comprehensive inventory of corporate assets in their ministers' portfolios. Working from this inventory, early in the new fiscal year, a short list of corporate assets will be identified for a detailed review based on their potential to improve the efficiency and effectiveness of the government's use of its resources, or to contribute to achieving government policy priorities.

Detailed reviews of specific corporate assets will be initiated in the first half of the fiscal year. This work will involve a policy and technical analysis of the asset, including the current relevance of the asset to the government's core responsibilities; an assessment of options for the structure and ownership of the asset.

In some cases additional work will be undertaken to assess an asset's value under different scenarios, likely informed by third-party expert advice on financial forecasts, value and marketability. The Minister of Finance will lead the reviews, in close collaboration with the minister responsible for the assets under review. The Minister of Finance and the minister responsible for the asset will consider the various options for the future of the asset and will decide on a course of action that ensures that taxpayer resources are effectively deployed and allocated to Canadians' top priorities.

There is a range of potential outcomes in the review of specific assets. These outcomes could include the status quo, with no change to the structure or ownership of the asset. They could also include a reorganization of the corporate structure, and the adoption of alternative governance structures.

In some cases, the analysis could lead to a recommendation regarding the sale of an asset. All appropriate authorities to implement the chosen option, including parliamentary authorities, will be sought as required. The timing of any asset sale will take into consideration its marketability and the condition of markets.

No decisions have yet been taken on the sale of any particular assets.

Thank you.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Derek Lee

Thank you. I thought that was quite a good set of opening remarks.

Mr. Hirst, are you going to be presenting?

11:15 a.m.

Bob Hirst Executive Director, Assets and Acquired Services, Government Operations Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat

Yes, I do have opening remarks.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Derek Lee

All right. If everyone is okay with that, Mr. Hirst, please go ahead.

11:15 a.m.

Executive Director, Assets and Acquired Services, Government Operations Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat

Bob Hirst

Thank you.

Thanks for inviting us here today.

My understanding is that the committee has expressed an interest in Treasury Board real property and particularly in relation to the sale of real property assets.

The real property is a significant corporate resource that is critical to enable the delivery of government programs. That is its purpose. Federal real property holdings are diverse and include such assets as military bases under the custody of DND, correctional facilities under Correctional Services Canada, research labs under the science departments, and office buildings under the custody of PWGSC.

The Treasury Board real property policy reflects a principles-based approach to the management of federal real property. It emphasizes deputy head accountability to ensure that sound stewardship and value for money are achieved through effective, efficient, and financially responsible management that enables program delivery while meeting broader government objectives such as the protection and preservation of our heritage and the environment. The policy ensures the equitable treatment of Canadians and value for the Canadian taxpayer through fair and transparent transactions at market value.

The management of real property by departments is a systematic, structured process that covers the life cycle of the asset. The first stage is planning, including the development of a long-term investment plan that takes into account government priorities and departmental objectives and resources.

The second stage involves the acquisition of the asset, which can be through purchase or lease. There is no policy requirement that an asset be owned. In fact, innovation is encouraged in asset-related decisions, and departments must consider in their analysis the full range of available options to best meet their program needs and achieve value for money over the full life cycle.

During the third stage of an asset's life cycle, its use, there would be a regular assessment of its performance in supporting departmental programs. Finally, when there is no longer a program need for the asset, the Treasury Board policy requires that the department take steps to dispose of it through sale or transfer.

As stipulated in the Treasury Board directive on the sale or transfer of surplus real property, there are two types of disposal through sale: routine and strategic. They differ mostly in terms of their importance and their value. In either scenario, departments are responsible for managing the disposal process, and due diligence must be carried out that takes into account legal risk, duty to consult with first nations, environmental considerations, heritage, impact on wildlife habitat, and the market value of the property.

Routine disposals are generally those smaller properties with a lower dollar value that can be sold easily without any substantial investment. They are normally sold as is directly by the custodian or its agent, usually PWGSC or a private sector firm. On the other hand, strategic disposals are properties with potential for significantly enhanced value that tend to be larger and more sensitive.

When properties have been identified as strategic, they are often sold to Canada Lands Company Limited, CLC, a federal crown corporation and the government's disposal agent. CLC then takes these properties and improves, manages, or sells them to produce the optimal benefits for the company's shareholder, the Government of Canada, and for local communities.

An indication of interest in the surplus routine or strategic property will be sought from federal departments, agent crown corporations, provincial and municipal governments. This will provide these priority interests with an opportunity to acquire the property for a public purpose before it is offered for sale on the open market, in the case of routine, or to have their interest reflected in the disposal strategy for strategic properties.

That concludes my remarks.

Thank you.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Derek Lee

Thank you very much.

Did you want to try to wrap up, since we've learned most of what there is to know, Mr. Smith?

11:20 a.m.

Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat

Alister Smith

No, I wouldn't like to try to wrap up, Chair.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Derek Lee

We'd be delighted to hear your remarks.

11:20 a.m.

Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat

Alister Smith

I can speak about the strategic reviews now or a little bit later, whichever you wish.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Derek Lee

If you don't want to add anything to what's been input so far, then we can go right to questions from members.

Mr. Warkentin.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Chris Warkentin Conservative Peace River, AB

I think we'd like to hear the comments regarding strategic review, if that's appropriate.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Derek Lee

Have we something on the subject of strategic or expenditure review?

Mr. Smith, please.

11:20 a.m.

Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat

Alister Smith

Thank you. I'd be happy to.

I would like to thank the honourable members of the committee for the opportunity to speak with you about strategic reviews.

Perhaps I could start briefly with the framework within which we're working. The expenditure management framework is a framework for developing and implementing the government's spending plans in support of its priorities. This framework was put in place in the budget of 2007.

In it we emphasized three key elements: managing for results, where departments are expected to manage their programs to achieve results and evaluate program performance against these results; up-front discipline for new spending proposals that must clearly define objectives and expected results and determine how they relate to existing programs and the priorities of government; and strategic reviews, the ongoing assessment of each department's spending to ensure that all programs are effective, efficient, and provide value for money. Strategic reviews are a key element in what we've called EMS renewal.

I'd like to emphasize that strategic reviews are not a cuts exercise. They are an ongoing process to allow ministers to take a hard look at what works and what doesn't. They are about looking for opportunities to improve how departments and agencies do business so they can provide the best programs and services to Canadians. In that sense, they're about good government.

In terms of the process, strategic reviews are owned by ministers. Ministers, supported by deputy heads, are responsible for conducting the review of their organizations in accordance with the terms of reference approved by Treasury Board.

A key requirement is that review organizations systematically assess 100% of their direct program spending to ensure that programs are aligned to government priorities, achieve intended results, and are efficiently delivered.

This comprehensive evaluation is based on facts and groups together the analysis of both the financial and non-financial performance of each program. It is based on the department's Program Activity Architecture and on the information and analysis with respect to evaluations, audits and evaluations done under the Management Accountability Framework.

In undertaking the reviews, departments and agencies examine their program spending with a view to seeking opportunities to better focus their programs and services, streamline operations, and transform the way they do business to achieve results for Canadians.

As part of the review process, departments are required to identify the lowest-priority and lowest-performing 5% of programs whose funding could be reallocated to other priorities within the department or to meet other government priorities. As well, as part of the review departments identify opportunities for reinvestment.

Once reviews have been completed, ministers present the results of the reviews to the Treasury Board for its consideration. The Treasury Board assesses the reports and recommendations for changes to programs and funding levels developed by individual ministers. In turn, the President of the Treasury Board, on behalf of Treasury Board ministers, reports its recommendations on proposals developed by ministers to the priorities and planning committee of cabinet as input into budget planning. Reallocations and reinvestments announced in the budget are those approved by cabinet.

The first two rounds of strategic reviews undertaken in 2007 covered approximately $43 billion of direct program spending.

The first round of strategic reviews in 2007 identified re-allocations or savings ramping up to about $385 million per year. The results were presented in the 2008 budget.

The second round of strategic reviews was undertaken in 2008 and identified savings ramping up to about $585 million. The results were presented in the 2009 budget.

These savings were reallocated to higher-priority areas, either through reinvestments in the departments that undertook strategic reviews or through investments in priority areas in other organizations.

In closing, I'd like to thank you for the opportunity to provide an overview.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Derek Lee

Thank you very much.

I think we can see the very strong thread that unites these three issues. If it were a jigsaw puzzle, I couldn't immediately reassemble it, but I know it's there.

I'm going to turn now to questioning.

Ms. Findlay, you're leading off? Okay, for eight minutes.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Martha Hall Findlay Liberal Willowdale, ON

Terrific. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much. Welcome, everyone, thank you for coming here to be with us this morning.

My question is more on the assets, as opposed to the expenditure review, Mr. Smith, so you're off the hook for the time being.

Mr. Botham, could you please confirm for us now.... We had commitments in the economic update in the fall about what revenue we would see from asset sales. And of course we now have budget 2009. Could you just confirm what budget 2009 has in it in expectations for revenue from sales of assets in terms of overall dollar figures, please?

11:25 a.m.

Director, Microeconomic Policy Analysis, Economic Development and Corporate Finance, Department of Finance

Richard Botham

You're quite correct in saying that the fall economic update included projections both from the strategic review exercise and the corporate asset review.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Martha Hall Findlay Liberal Willowdale, ON

I'm only speaking specifically about asset sales.

11:25 a.m.

Director, Microeconomic Policy Analysis, Economic Development and Corporate Finance, Department of Finance

Richard Botham

In the update, a line was included that combined both projections. For 2009-10, it was $2.3 billion. The projections included in the update were based on or used to provide revenue projections for budget 2009, so it built on that. Based on the results of the strategic review, the budget included $350 million that was realized from the strategic review for 2009-10.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Martha Hall Findlay Liberal Willowdale, ON

I may not have been very clear. In the economic update, we had a commitment of seeing $10 billion realized from asset sales. It raised a series of questions at the time. I note your comments that we're not engaging in a fire sale of assets. At that particular time, our real concern was that there was going to be a fire sale because of the difficulty in committing to a very large amount of revenue from asset sales without having identified the assets first.

I just want to pin down right now what we're looking at in terms of the government's expectation from the budget that we're about to pass and the actual amount of money that is forecast to be realized from the sale of assets.

11:25 a.m.

Director, Microeconomic Policy Analysis, Economic Development and Corporate Finance, Department of Finance

Richard Botham

Right. I'll go back to where I was with the update, with the number of $2.3 billion. The budget built on that, realizing savings of about $350 million in 2009, so the expected revenue from a corporate asset review for 2009-10 is about $2 billion.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Martha Hall Findlay Liberal Willowdale, ON

Where is that $10 billion figure coming from?

11:25 a.m.

Director, Microeconomic Policy Analysis, Economic Development and Corporate Finance, Department of Finance

Richard Botham

That's a multi-year projection that was included in the economic update. I believe a five-year time horizon is provided.