Government Operations Committee on Feb. 5th, 2009

[Hélène Laurendeau]

In 2002 there was a project called universal classification standards, which was dropped. But if I may refresh your memory, at the time that this particular project was terminated, there was a clear indication that there was still a need for some classification reform. A lot of classification reform activity has happened since.

In this last round of collective bargaining in the fall with the Canada Border Services Agency, we came up with rates of pay to support a new classification for the border guards. In less recent history, we also did the foreign service officers. We are working as well on the economists. So there has indeed been a continuation of some form of classification reform, but it's in a different fashion, not as a universal classification exercise.

You also are probably aware that in the recent PSAC settlement we have also restarted the consultation process with the Public Service Alliance of Canada for the reform of their biggest group, the PA group. The short answer to your question is that since 2002 there has still been some classification reform activity.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

I am a carpenter by trade; I used to represent the carpenters' union.

With what little time I have left, could I ask about the status of the settlement regarding a national scale for tradespeople within the public service, something they have aspired to for years? Can we look forward to that in the recent adjustments?

[Hélène Laurendeau]

In the last PSAC settlement, other than doing the conversion I just referred to for the border guards, there was also the introduction of national rates of pay for what we call the SV table, which includes the trades and other workmanship. Yes, the issue of the national rates of pay has been resolved in the past round of collective bargaining with PSAC. We're very proud of that.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Makes me feel proud too. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Derek Lee]

Thank you, Mr. Martin.

Ms. Hall Findlay and Mr. McTeague, I think you wanted to share this. This is a five-minute round.

[Martha Hall Findlay, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Thank you very much.

It's my turn to welcome everyone, especially considering that it was on very short notice.

I have a very quick question. Mr. Smith, you had mentioned earlier the breakdown of the increase in the Public Service Human Resources Management Agency of Canada. In one part, if I'm not mistaken, you had a breakdown of five or six and you listed them. One of them was an advertising campaign. Could you elaborate on the amount and specifics?

[Alister Smith]

Yes, I actually do not have too much information on this, but I think the amount is only $120,000 of the total amount, and it's part of a horizontal cross-government advertising program, so it was a contribution to that on the part of CPSA.

[Martha Hall Findlay, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Okay, thank you very much.

[Dan McTeague, Liberal, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

Chair, I won't be very long.

Madame Laurendeau, for the purposes of the committee I wanted to get very clear information from you as soon as you're able to furnish it. Just so there is no question as to the discussion we had, the questions I had earlier, the Treasury Board directive on executive compensation as far as merit and pay is concerned is one that firmly includes or does not include senior members of the RCMP, and rank-and-file members are not entitled to the same compensation, notwithstanding the rollback. I want to be absolutely clear this is what we're seeking here as soon as you can furnish that.

[Hélène Laurendeau]

Yes, two things on that. The policy is a Treasury Board policy, but the senior cadre performance pay is a Public Service Agency policy. I had noted your question as you just rephrased it and I will make my best effort to provide you with the answer.

[Dan McTeague, Liberal, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

Thank you.

The other two I would certainly want to be precise on: how many RCMP officers, rank and file, are affected by the rollback or the change? Also, could you be more precise in terms of an actual figure on a per salary level of the implications of the impact on rank-and-file RCMP?

Those would be all my questions, Chair.

And if you could, just provide those as soon as you can.

[The Chair, Liberal, Derek Lee]

Do committee members accept that this reply would go directly to Mr. McTeague?

[Dan McTeague, Liberal, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

Oh no, it can go to the committee, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Derek Lee]

Mr. McTeague has requested it. What seems to be a simple request from you can turn into a $300 to $500 exercise by the time we get the information, we duplicate it, we translate it, we disseminate it, deliver it. If members are happy that the answer goes directly to Mr. McTeague, we can avoid that expense and everybody's happy, but if any member wants this information, the member shall have it. I'm only asking.

Okay. You may provide the answer to the member in his or her language of choice. Thank you.

Going now to Mr. Brown.

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Lee.

My first question is if you could provide an explanation for how the ARLU process works, the annual reference level update, in relation to the Treasury Board in the supplementary estimates.

[Alister Smith]

Yes, I can, sir, briefly.

Every year we establish the reference levels for departments for the forthcoming year through what is called the annual reference level update, our ARLU process. To boil it down to simplest terms, we take the previous year's budget for the department and we make any changes, additions, or subtractions to the budget, which show up through supplementary estimates, for example, in preparing the budget for the department for the next fiscal year, so in this case for the 2009-10 fiscal year. That's essentially the process we follow.

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

Another question I wanted to ask was this. We have heard some reference to some of the difficulties in the whole collective bargaining process. Could you mention some successes in collective bargaining we can point to?

[Hélène Laurendeau]

Yes. Thank you for asking the question.

We had a massive round of collective bargaining under way in the past year. We were negotiating with 25 of the 27 groups of the core public administration and probably with an equivalent number of separate employers. We successfully concluded 15 collective agreements in the core public administration. A similar number were successfully concluded in the fall through separate employers.

So, yes, there have been some successes.

We also have been able, with our bargaining agent partners, to negotiate certain things that were fairly contentious. I referred already to the conversion for the border guards. I also referred to the national rates of pay for the trades.

We were also able, with the ship officers, to come up with a suitable settlement with respect to a very complicated system of leave that was making crewing of the ships for the coast guard extremely difficult. That was a less publicized success, but being able to resolve those thorny issues was a very important success for both sides.

So, yes, there have been some successes.

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

I guess at times it's the difficulties that get more attention than the successes. But when you look at Canada in comparison with other countries, how do you think we're faring, in terms of peace and the avoidance of acrimony?

[Hélène Laurendeau]

I think you're quite right in saying that, unfortunately, labour relations tend to get publicity when things are tough. But at the same time, given the number of bargaining units we're dealing with, given the number of ongoing conversations we're having on a stack of issues through collective bargaining and, I would note, through the National Joint Council, I would say we're doing fairly well.

Are things perfect? No. But the nature of the discussions is such that we have an open channel of communication, and we are working at finding solutions to difficult issues.

So how do we compare to other countries? I think the level of labour disruption we have experienced in the past few years has been relatively low and manageable. I am not saying it isn't in existence, but it has been manageable. We're working hard and making sure we strike the right balance between providing the appropriate package to attract and retain the people we need to actually perform duties and doing it in a way that is respectful of the taxpayers' purse.

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

I have one final question. In terms of compensation adjustments, are these a regularly occurring process throughout the supplementary estimates?

[Alister Smith]

I can address that.

Yes, we do compensate departments for any changes due to collective agreements that have been settled, and we compensate them for the difference between their current budgets and the cost, essentially, that occurs through the collective agreements. So essentially, the amount in Treasury Board's supplementary estimates here is a transfer from a Treasury Board central vote to departments and agencies to cover the costs of those collective agreements.

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

How often do those adjustments occur?

[Alister Smith]

They can be quite frequent if we're in a heavy bargaining round. But I'll turn that question over to Hèléne.

[Hélène Laurendeau]

They usually follow the cycle of collective bargaining and other compensation decisions, because those amounts also include the compensation decisions that are not necessarily collectively bargained. I am referring to the RCMP or the armed forces or any public servants who are not unionized. As soon as we have significant compensation decisions, we follow suit as soon as the collective agreements are signed to make sure that the money is channelled to the departments so they can actually pay the employees at the required level.

So you will notice, if you look at the past five or ten years, that you have spikes, and they usually correspond to spikes of activity on the bargaining front once every two or three years.