Government Operations Committee on June 18th, 2009

[Maria Barrados]

Possibly. For me, it is very important that departments plan better. Changes in budget are normal; the private sector has them too. Then, there are employees who are ready to retire. People leave all the time and have to be replaced. We have all the demographic data we need to be able to plan.

[Jean-Yves Roy, Bloc, Haute-Gaspésie—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Hiring a temporary worker has another financial advantage for a department: the benefits cost a lot less.

[Maria Barrados]

Temporary workers are hired to replace workers who are ill, or when a short-term employee is needed. If you have a long-term position to fill, you are better off hiring a permanent employee.

In government, there are a number of opportunities to change jobs.

[Jean-Yves Roy, Bloc, Haute-Gaspésie—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

In your report, you also mention “classification creep“. I have difficulty with that term. [Editor's note: Technical Difficulties]. Does classification creep mean playing with the classification in order to provide employees with additional benefits? You say that this can cause significant problems in the public service. Too many chiefs and not enough Indians.

[Maria Barrados]

I am going to ask Mr. Lemaire to finish my answer.

There are two things. First, there are changes in the occupational structure. We can see that knowledge workers are in greater and greater demand. Second, there are some classification levels that are higher than they were in the past, but the work is the same, so that the people in those positions get higher salaries.

[Donald Lemaire, Senior Vice-President, Policy Branch, Public Service Commission of Canada]

There is an element of internal competition. At times, departments even try to outbid each other. For example, doing a certain kind of work in one organization may put an employee at level Y while, in another organization, it is level X. As a result, knowing that, employees can ask to go to a different level.

In a way, it perhaps reflects the classification structure. The positions, and the nature of the work, have changed. So we have to ask ourselves whether the classification reflects those changes. If not, perhaps that is what partly explains the adjustment. The office of the PSC's Chief Human Resources Officer would be better able to answer that question, but there are all kinds of valid reasons. Sometimes, it is in order to provide a salary increase; sometimes, it is to attract people or to compete with other departments when there is a shortage. By definition, an internal market is closed, so internal shortages can be artificial. If things are opened to people from the outside, the shortage is no longer the same, and may even become a surplus. All these factors come into play. I do not think that we are able to talk in percentages and say that 20% is because an artificial shortage has been created internally and another 20% is because of a disconnect between the nature of the task and the way in which it is accomplished.

I remember very well that, when I came back, there was a computer on my desk. Previously, I would give my documents to an assistant who would type them, and so on. Now I do not have an assistant of that kind because it is no longer necessary. What I expect from an assistant is different now, but the classification has remained the same. So we say that the “secretary“ category, for example, has practically disappeared because we do the work ourselves. Now, we need people who are much more skilled in document formatting and presentation. That requires a knowledge of software, or knowledge of other kinds. But we may not have changed the classification, and we need a different classification to recognize the different expertise. All those factors are involved; it is quite complicated.

[The Chair, Liberal, Derek Lee]

Madam Barrados, you indicated you had a list of departments that--

[Maria Barrados]

I just read them off, but we'll give them to you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Derek Lee]

If you've read them on the record, that's fine. You did read them? That's fine. It's already on the record.

[Judy Foote, Liberal, Random—Burin—St. George's, NL]

Mr. Chair, I didn't know if the entire list was actually read into the record.

[Maria Barrados]

I can make sure that you have copies of this.

[The Chair, Liberal, Derek Lee]

That would be great. That would satisfy Ms. Foote and the chair.

Now we'll go to Monsieur Gourde for five minutes.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I have a question about the audit of the Federal Student Work Experience Program. The PSC had questions about the requirement for all students to have a learning plan, given that only 12% of them fulfilled the requirement. Would the program be adversely affected if this requirement were abolished?

[The Chair, Liberal, Derek Lee]

Could you repeat the last part of your question?

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC]

I can say it again.

When it audited the Federal Student Work Experience Program, the PSC had questions about the requirement for all students to have a learning plan, given that only 12% of them fulfilled the requirement. Would the program be adversely affected if this requirement were abolished?

[Maria Barrados]

We conducted the audit according to Treasury Board guidelines. An important element of an audit for us is to determine whether managers complied with all Treasury Board requirements. Treasury Board policy requires a learning plan for all students and we discovered that the actual rate was 7%. That is not enough. Our conclusion is that it is up to Treasury Board to determine if the learning plan for students is really necessary.

Do you want to add anything?

[Jean Ste-Marie]

The Treasury Board people accepted the recommendation we made to them. They are presently reviewing student employment policies. So the matter is going to be addressed.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC]

What did the learning plan involve? Was the goal to train the students?

[Jean Ste-Marie]

Yes. At the outset, it was a development program for students. But, over the years, it became more and more a recruiting program. As the president said, we only found a learning plan in 7% of the cases.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC]

Did the departments provide the learning plans for the students to follow?

[Jean Ste-Marie]

To start with, yes.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC]

But only 7% of the students had them?

[Jean Ste-Marie]

Exactly. There are hardly any learning plans now.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC]

Is it because people had no time?

[Jean Ste-Marie]

As I said earlier, there has been a steady move from a student development program to a recruitment program. People are much more interested in finding candidates than in training them.