Government Operations Committee on Nov. 17th, 2009

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Mr. Smillie, were the jobs created quality jobs or were they temporary jobs? I'd like you to talk to me about those jobs.

[Christopher Smillie]

Merci pour la question.

The jobs that are being created are first-class, skilled-trades jobs. There is a range of jobs that is created through these stimulus projects--all the engineering, all the draft work, and then our jobs when they get out to the field. There are something like 1.6 million Canadians involved in construction, and I'd be hesitant to say any of them were not quality jobs. Our members are the highest trained and some of the best skilled in the business.

The construction industry is a great place to have a career. I think these jobs are high quality. It's not what someone would deem a lower-quality job.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Merci, Madame.

We now go to Mr. Warkentin, for eight minutes.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. Smillie and gentlemen, we appreciate your attendance this afternoon.

I come from the construction industry, as you know, and when you talk about the high quality and good people who work in that industry, I couldn't agree more. It's truly a group of professions that are often the unsung heroes of Canadian life and are the underpinning of many communities. So we appreciate you gentlemen, and also the folks you represent.

Today I want to talk about a number of things. I actually want to follow up on one of my colleague's questions as it relates to websites and different things. I'm wondering, Mr. Smillie, if you're familiar with the website called creatingjobs.gc.ca and the outlay of all the stimulus projects and construction projects on that website.

[Christopher Smillie]

I have to admit I haven't seen it. What kinds of things does it have on it? Sorry, I'm asking you questions now.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

I appreciate that, and I think it's helpful not only for you but for anybody who is interested. It outlines all the infrastructure projects that are being brought forward through the stimulus dollars. It's the Canadian version of some of the American websites.

What I would recommend both to your association and others is to take a look at it, and if you have suggestions as to how that website might be improved to give information that's relevant and helpful to you, we'd be happy to take that feedback back to our minister and the department so that you have the information that's helpful as it relates to the jobs that are being created with the thousands of projects that are under way.

As you know, and as you've outlined.... The concern of everyone in this committee is that the stimulus money get out there to help those folks it was intended to help. Clearly, tradespeople are on the top of that list.

Of course many of these projects were determined at the municipal level, and there are many municipalities that chose projects that were pre-engineered and ready to go within the next couple of years, if not this coming year. They actually allocated the funds at the municipal level to other projects.

I'm wondering if you're familiar with situations where tradespeople are already undertaking complex construction jobs. I just don't want to leave folks with the illusion that no complex construction job is actually hiring tradespeople right now.

[Christopher Smillie]

Yes, sir, I believe there are a few bridges in the Ottawa area, and there are a few of the bridges heading to West Island in Montreal that have already begun some of the repair work under some of the money that's included in this package. I don't have exact numbers on how many people would be involved on those specific projects, but those are the ones I'm aware of that are happening in real time.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

Just another thing, and maybe just as a piece of information that's helpful for all committee members to recognize: I know that there was a suggestion a little bit earlier, and I just don't want to leave people with the impression that if a municipality undertakes a construction project and it's not 100% complete, they're not able to receive any of the government funds. What the government has made clear is that the municipality and the construction companies are able to bill as the project is completed, but that billing will cease and payment will cease after that point in time, after the deadline of March 31, 2011. I just do that for clarification because I know that most members of the committee are familiar with that, and you gentlemen will be familiar with that, but there are other people looking for information from this committee. I just put that on the record so people are not under the illusion that such a thing is taking place.

I appreciate the documentation you brought forward. I think it's very helpful. It indicates that clearly there's a necessity to continue to work to stimulate the economy for tradespeople, but it also indicates that you see an anticipated increase in the employment of tradespeople.

You talk about the drop-off of 2012, and that concerns me and committee members as well. I'm wondering if you might be able to just identify what your association and your groups are doing in considering some of the projects that are currently being announced. I come from Alberta and I look at the Alberta context. I know that some of these large industrial projects that were put on hold or cancelled are now coming back on stream. I think of the Firebag project that was just recently announced, which is billions of dollars in investment and clearly will hire thousands, if not tens of thousands, of tradespeople.

Have those numbers started to come into your calculations, or are those announcements too early or too recent?

[Christopher Smillie]

Insofar as they were recent, we always had a view to workforce planning for what's coming. There are two facets to this question. There's the new construction, the new build, and then there is also maintenance of current facilities. When we're looking at either stream, new construction is viewed upon as having fixed time periods where you require people. So the electricians go in from April 1 until June 1, the ironworkers go in previous to that. The new construction is viewed in blocks. However, the maintenance of the facilities close to Firebag and around Firebag is part of the industry that is very labour-intensive. So what we do is look at manpower: who's currently not working? There are people in New Brunswick currently not working. We try to get them to Alberta to man those shutdowns, so to speak.

There are really two facets: there are the new builds, and then there's maintaining current facilities.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

I know that you've identified Alberta as one of those areas where there has been a reduction in tradespeople being hired by industrial components. I'm hopeful, and maybe it's too early, but I'd be interested in the analysis of these projects that are being announced and how they will decrease unemployment, gentlemen.

[Steven Schumann, Director Canadian Government Affairs, Canadian Region, International Union of Operating Engineers]

I just have a comment that when you talk about shutdowns—and I think Larry touched on this too—we have a concern. The way everything's happening right now in the turn is actually providing a skilled workforce. The upcoming shutdowns are going to require a huge workforce and a skilled workforce that right now, because of the current downturn, we've lost. They've gone to look for jobs in other sectors or other provinces. So to fill those needs is going to also be a challenge.

We'll bring people in from other provinces, but as well we're looking to bring in some workers, if possible, from the U.S., and to try to deal with foreign credentials that way. It's great that we're talking about the here and now with infrastructure, but we also have to look at the long term, and that is a skills issue. It is loss of apprentices, it's the loss of the workforce. That skilled workforce may not come back because they'll find other employment elsewhere or in another sector. It is hard, in many ways. You can plan, but you also need to plan the workforce issue, and that is a bit harder to calculate because you don't know if you're going to get them to return.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

Thank you.

I'm running out of time, but I want to take up that issue. Maybe you can provide for our committee suggestions as to how we might be able to ensure that in the long term we don't lose tradespeople. I'm most concerned about young people right now. There's a reluctance to go into the trades because there don't seem to be the immediate openings.

I spoke to some of our college presidents who represent trade schools. What they're finding is that, number one, there are limited opportunities for apprentices or future apprentices to be hired on right now, so they're finding their enrolment is down at their colleges. I think we would be interested in what you could provide in terms of feedback.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Mr. Warkentin, your time is up. We can ask them to respond when they're making their closing remarks.

Mr. Martin, for eight minutes.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, guests. Steve, Christopher, and Larry, it's great to see you here. It makes me very proud, actually, that the building trades are making a presentation to this committee. Having spent my entire working life as a journeyman carpenter, I thank you for pointing out not only the value that your industry brings as an economic driver, but also how it's a good measurement too. It's a barometer for how the economy is doing as we watch the building trades industry.

Not to be repetitious, but I think there's a bit of a motif developing here. Many of the answers come back to the human resources question. So my first question to you is a simple one. Will you be able to meet the human resources demands to staff the other 60% or 70% of these projects as they go forward? You answered it partly, I believe, but I'd like to hear more about the option.

Maybe I'm not phrasing this well, but one of your strengths and our strengths, with my union, is that we're international unions. We belong to one North American collective, a pool of skilled labour. Rather than bringing in temporary foreign workers from all over the world, would it not make sense to just relax the border somewhat, so that if we can't fill that job with a qualified Canadian, we could at least bring that person from our affiliated local unions south of the border? I think it's worthy to expand on that if any or all of you would like to.

[Christopher Smillie]

I'll go first, guys.

It really is an opportunity that we have before us to do something differently. The current situation with U.S. workers coming in to do trade work in Canada is that U.S. workers are treated exactly the same as any other person would be from a foreign country. So it's the same process. They're still considered to be temporary foreign workers. In fact, the largest percentage of temporary foreign workers in Canada is from the United States, the second being that from Britain.

It really highlights an opportunity for us, going forward, if U.S. workers were treated not differently but in a front-of-the-line way, in that we do have similar organizations across the borders where we could have a North American workforce. I would definitely be supportive of that kind of system, whereas right now it's up to the contractors to go through the temporary foreign worker process. And therefore it's similar to that of bringing in someone from--let's use a country that's farther away--let's say, South Korea, so it's the same process for bringing in Americans and South Koreans.

There is definitely an opportunity for us to leverage weaknesses in the U.S. market right now and bring those members to Canada when the work is available. So I would argue that the stimulus is a good opportunity for that.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

I think it's an absolute natural, I really do. We have NAFTA and we were supposed to have the free movement of goods and services across our border. Why not the free movement of labour, as long as--

[Christopher Smillie]

Yes, sir. NAFTA excludes trades workers, so it doesn't include them.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

We just had this airport built in Winnipeg. It was teams of Lebanese workers who had just come from Latvia. Some labour broker moves this group of carpenters around the country, so our unemployed carpenters were standing outside the fence looking in while a bunch of Lebanese guys--and I have nothing against Lebanese people, but they weren't Canadians--were doing our work and taking that money out of the country in terms of wages. I would much rather have a fellow member of my own union, who is trained at the same skill level as I am, come up from Minneapolis than have some guy getting flown in from Latvia to eat our lunch.

Would anybody else like to comment on that?

[Larry Cann]

We've already started a program. We've already been to Detroit to start with the states that are close to the border. Most of the requirements for our trades are Red Seal requirements. So we've gone down there to have a “train the trainer.” We have thousands of individuals who are pipefitters, welders—basically the same skills that we have here in Canada—but they can't get across the border.

With the outages coming up in the spring in Alberta, they're talking about needed 10,000 or 12,000 tradespeople. They have the perfect storm coming where all the refineries want to do their shutdowns. So there's going to be a problem if we can't man it up.

The apprentice situation is one problem. But that's something we'd like work on with our partners, both federal and provincial. We want to put in place a more streamlined process to help get them across the border so they can come here and work. They have a lot of the same qualifications, but they may not have the piece of paper. It's quite easy to get them here and to transport them back home again. I think it would be a good solution to a lot of our short-term needs. For the long term, we need the stimulus to get young people into the trades. It's hard to get young people in today because there's a shortage of job opportunities. But in my trade, we turn away many highly qualified people because there aren't enough job opportunities.

There may be a few trades where there is a shortage, but our organization is 20% to 25% apprentices. Over the last five years, we've tried to up the numbers. I can only speak for my trade, but we see the shortage, and we're trying to work with everybody to make sure we get there.

[Christopher Smillie]

Mr. Martin, I spoke with one of my contractor partners in Alberta who brings in temporary foreign workers from country Y. The average cost to bring that worker to Canada, lodge him, and then send him back is about $15,000.

The cost of using an American worker would be much less, around $5,000 per worker. If we could bring in American workers, it would definitely appeal to my contractor's bottom-line mentality.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

They'd also be able to count on the level of training. In all likelihood, the UA member from the United States would have gone through a very similar, if not the exactly same, apprenticeship system. Wouldn't it be a two-way street? There may come a time when the U.S. needs people, and our unemployed tradespeople could more easily go down there.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Mr. Martin, it's time to wrap up.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Anyway, thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Ms. Foote.