Evidence of meeting #43 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was project.
A recording is available from Parliament.
3:45 p.m.
Bloc
Diane Bourgeois Bloc Terrebonne—Blainville, QC
Fine.
As a result, the business cases have not yet been made.
3:45 p.m.
Chief Operating Officer, Information Technology Services Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services
The logic behind our business rationale was based on an initial business case developed by HRSDC about three or four years ago. As we move towards putting this contract in place, once a contract is established, we will have firm numbers that will be used to update that business case, which will also probably be used as other departments look to join that particular service.
3:45 p.m.
Bloc
Diane Bourgeois Bloc Terrebonne—Blainville, QC
It is hard for us to understand. You are saying that your business cases date back two or three years, analyses that we have asked for on many occasions and which have never been sent to the committee.
First of all, I would appreciate your tabling those with the committee. If you require a motion in order to do so, we will pass one.
Furthermore, a technology strategies manager at Treasury Board Canada said on January 15, 2009, during a meeting with the industry, that he did not know if there would be any real potential savings. He presumed that they would be in the range of 20%, but he did not know because there had not been any tests. You are telling me that the departments must make business cases, but that they have not already done so.
You are moving forward. To date, $1.5 million has been spent on the implement of GENS. In the budget, I see that you are asking for $20 million more to carry on with the implementation of new information technologies. I'm sorry if those are not the correct terms. I'm under the impression that the departments will have no choice, they will have to move forward. It also seems to me that you do not know how many departments will follow you in this initiative and what the result of the business cases will be.
If we provide you with $20 million on top of the $1.5 million, that makes $21.5 million, without knowing what that will result in. Could you explain to us how this came about?
3:50 p.m.
Chief Operating Officer, Information Technology Services Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Thank you for the question, Madam Chair.
What I would like to start off with is that I must apologize, but I don't understand your reference to $20 million. It is true that we've spent approximately $1.2 million on the work that's gone into creating the procurement vehicle that we call GENS.
I'd like to also add that in fact departments are using procurement vehicles today to obtain these services. What we are doing is renewing the procurement vehicles that are currently in place. The money is being spent today. What we're doing is offering another procurement vehicle, another choice, if you will, for departments to use to provide these telecom and telecommunications services in their departments.
I think we've mentioned in the past, and I'll repeat again today, that these services are optional. The use of the procurement vehicle we are putting in place, called GENS, is optional for departments. It is in parallel with several others, and others remain, and for that reason it's difficult for us to give you firm numbers on how many departments would use this particular vehicle. And that's why each department needs to go through a process of establishing their own business case to use the tool we're putting in place.
3:50 p.m.
Bloc
Diane Bourgeois Bloc Terrebonne—Blainville, QC
Would it not seem logical for you to go to the departments concerned, to take note of the improvements they're requesting and, at the same time, given that the problems are widespread, to tell them that you are going to solve these problems by regrouping the contracts? That would be logical.
Currently, you are ahead of the process and you are asking departments to establish their own business cases. It really is rather odd.
3:50 p.m.
Chief Operating Officer, Information Technology Services Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Madam Chair, I guess I would respond by saying that the process is an established process within procurement, within the federal government, where the public works organization puts in place procurement vehicles for departments to use and, in particular, in telecommunications services. It's one that's had a well-established pedigree—for more than 40 years we've been doing this—so this is not new. This is something we continually do, it's been refreshed, and the method of supply, which is again optional by departments, is something that is at the preference of the departments.
There has been no direction from any policy or centre to make these services mandatory by departments and therefore it's difficult for us to put together a solid business case, not knowing what numbers might eventually appear. Not only that, it's also difficult, as I understand, for vendors to respond without knowing. So when we go out with a solicitation of interest we will provide parameters for the vendors to use, knowing what potential volume will be used through this particular vehicle, and they'll be able to price their products in that way. And departments, based on the prices that are provided, will be able to do their own business case to determine if that's the solution they're seeking.
3:50 p.m.
Bloc
Diane Bourgeois Bloc Terrebonne—Blainville, QC
You are having trouble specifying what the costs will be. In fact, you are asking us to write you a blank cheque. You are not giving us any figures. Show me, in black and white, here and now, that your project makes sense. That is what we have been asking for for several months. It seems to me that as parliamentarians, we are entitled to that information.
Can you table figures that unequivocally demonstrate that this new entity will make sense, on the one hand, and that its potential impact on small- and medium-sized businesses will be taken into account, on the other? That is all I'm asking for.
Thank you.
3:50 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Yasmin Ratansi
Mr. Rath-Wilson, would you be able to do it? I think we have received a lot of information--what we received last time, what the Auditor General told us, and what we have reviewed. And when we asked for a business case, you did send us a template, and the French version I've left on Madame Bourgeois' desk. But I guess that's not the template they were looking for. They are looking for an exact business case that justifies going with GENS rather than anywhere else, despite the fact that the Auditor General has kept on saying that large projects are not the way to go, that they should be broken down into different components. She has been saying that for 12 years.
That's where the frustration of the committee comes from. We're not doing your work. We do not want to do your work. We do not want to get into the operational issue. All we know is we're being bombarded by small and medium-sized enterprise, saying this is what the Auditor General says. So if you have a business case that justifies that GENS is the way to go, that your RFP took into consideration the number of users--remember, you gave us a process flow, and I'm sorry the committee did not have a look at the process flow because the binder is so big--but your RFP chooses contractors without finding users.... If you can explain that to us in the next round of questions, in your final remarks, and submit to the committee the business case you prepared, it would be very much appreciated.
Thank you.
Mr. Gourde, you have eight minutes.
3:55 p.m.
Conservative
Jacques Gourde Conservative Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I would like to welcome our witnesses.
In your presentation, Ms. Charette, you spoke about the “Executive Dashboard Guide”. Could you explain to me what that is?
3:55 p.m.
Chief Information Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat
It is a tool that sums up the status of a project on a single page. A project is defined by the scope of its functions, its estimated or approved budget, the approved schedule for the completion or the implementation and the completion, the series of risks identified during the project analysis and other factors that could come into play over the course of completion and that may have a material impact on the project as approved. The dashboard is a tool that consolidates variables that are essential for the proper unfolding and progress of a project.
This tool is also intended for the department's senior management that has approved a project and assigned it to a project manager. It allows them to maintain a dialogue regularly, and to use a pre-defined and consistent formula. This formula corresponds to best industry practices in terms of project management.
3:55 p.m.
Conservative
Jacques Gourde Conservative Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC
Does this tool serve as an intermediary between the managers and those carrying out the projects? Is it a way of overseeing it?
3:55 p.m.
Chief Information Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat
It is prepared by the project manager and his team. It is then presented to senior executives, sponsors and those who approved the project. It provides evidence as to the status of a project at any given moment in time.
3:55 p.m.
Conservative
Jacques Gourde Conservative Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC
You also spoke of the Independent Reviewer's Handbook. Who prepares that and what is its purpose?
3:55 p.m.
Chief Information Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat
Independent project reviews are a new practice that we have adopted. A manager may ask that an independent review be done of a project according to the project charter that was given to you, and which explains such things as the anticipated outcomes, as based on the business case guide. We basically rely on a pool of experienced staff. The work is done by a team, individual or other persons who are not part of the organization and project team. As such, they can take a fresh and independent look at the status of a project and report back to the whole team as well as the sponsor or senior executive concerned.
This type of external, periodic review can truly help to properly develop a project, whether in government or the industry as a whole. It is a way to quickly detect potential problems or difficulties that could arise sooner or later and to take the measures to eliminate or avoid them.
4 p.m.
Conservative
Jacques Gourde Conservative Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC
By whom and for whom is the project charter prepared?
4 p.m.
Chief Information Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat
Generally speaking, it is prepared by the project team and is intended for both the team and sponsor. It clearly sets out the work schedule, expected outcomes and the roles of each stakeholder. It is a kind of internal contract that allows everyone to properly understand their roles as well as project estimates, resources and expected timelines. Everyone can therefore move forward with the same clear understanding of the project.
4 p.m.
Conservative
Jacques Gourde Conservative Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC
Earlier, there was talk of the Business Case Guide and Template. Do you have anything to add about that?
4 p.m.
Chief Information Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat
Not for the time being, unless you have a specific question about the issue. We believe it is a good working tool. It imposes a very strict discipline on departments. It requires them to specify which options they considered and justify those that they retained. It is an assessment tool that supports the retained option.
4 p.m.
Conservative
Jacques Gourde Conservative Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC
What are the next steps that you will undertake as part of your current work?
4 p.m.
Chief Information Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat
I will ask Valerie to tell us whether we are planning to develop other project instruments to support the community.
November 26th, 2009 / 4 p.m.
Valerie Wutti Executive Director, Information Technology (IT) Project Review and Oversight, Chief Information Officer Branch, Treasury Board Secretariat
Yes, we continue to work with the departments to find the types of things they need to help improve their projects. We're currently working with a group of representatives to improve how they do cost estimates, because that is one area that needs strengthening, and smaller organizations can benefit from what larger organizations are doing and their experience.
So those are the types of ways we continue to work with departments to find out what their needs are, bring the community together, and create tools they can find effective across the spectrum of project needs.
4 p.m.
Conservative
4 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Yasmin Ratansi
I have a couple of questions that might help clarify the process.
In your last appearance you talked about a training program. So if small and medium-sized enterprises wished to bid, now we have to remember that sometimes they do not have the capacity to bid, so have they got the ability to go on the MERX system? Is there a dollar value? Is there a $250,000 value? On the provincial side there is—if you want to bid, you have to be a company of a certain size and put a deposit of a certain nature, because IT projects are difficult and it's very dangerous for government to go into places where sometimes the provider cannot provide the service. So for MERX is there any framework, any parameter, for an independent bidder?
4 p.m.
Chief Operating Officer, Information Technology Services Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services
I'll take that question, Madam Chair, but I'm afraid that, as it is a procurement question, I'll have to answer that question in writing later.