Government Operations Committee on Dec. 3rd, 2009

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

It's a very expensive point, but that's what those bags are, the three million door hangers. I went and got one. It's an envelope to put your receipts in.

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

I agree.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Well, it's a dandy idea. I am just wondering whether it is necessary to spend even more money. We're supposed to be tightening our belts here, not having money flying out the door promoting the government more than promoting programs. That's what we're concerned about here, Minister.

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

I think this is promoting jobs, Mr. Martin, and especially jobs in an area of the economy that you know a lot about, being head of the carpenters' union. I speak to carpenters and people in the home renovation business. They're really excited about this program. There still are people who may not know everything to do about either the details of the program itself or what to do.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

You'd have to be living in a cave, Minister, to have missed the advertising blitz associated with the home renovation tax credit.

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Then your dollar has been put to good use so far, and we hope to make sure that everyone, even those living in caves, has more than a cave to live in.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Maybe they could insulate their cave, that's right.

I notice that vote 15, or the bulk of what you have to come to ask for approval for today, is wages. I'm interested in this. Again as a former union leader, I'm glad to see that we're still paying out wage increases, even though we are going into a near-record deficit. We should all be mindful of how the previous Liberal government dealt with their deficit. They froze the wages of the public service for seven years, and then they harvested, if you will, the $30 billion surplus in the Public Service Pension Plan and put it to paying down the debt, instead of divvying it up amongst the pensioners—the beneficiaries of the plan, who thought it was money being held for them. The former President of the Treasury Board, Marcel Massé, in his last act as president—I won't use the word “stole”—took that $30 billion without sharing or any kind of negotiations, such as that maybe it should be 50-50 between employer and employee. They took it all.

I caution you that we are watching very carefully how the government is going to deal with the staggering deficit they have created and will have to deal with, come next year. We certainly hope and we serve notice that we expect the government to find some more creative way than taking it off the backs of their employees or out of the pension benefits from the beneficiaries of the Public Service Pension Plan.

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Thank you for those remarks, Mr. Martin. I take my responsibilities very seriously in this role, as does the Minister of Finance. I certainly know what it meant during the 1990s, as a member of a provincial government, to be faced with the cuts in transfers to the provinces in health and education that we faced—in Manitoba specifically, and I know it happened in other provinces.

To date, we have been very careful to ensure that any economic action is not on the backs of the provinces. We've been partners in this, and we want to continue to work in a partnering relationship with the provinces.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

I notice as well that the second-biggest ticket item you have is the $45.8 million being transferred to the Public Service Human Resources Management Agency for the amalgamation of the agency and the secretariat. Could you explain why this transfer shows up as a request for more money on the estimates at all, if it is simply a reallocation or a transfer of jurisdiction of duties?

[Michelle d'Auray]

Mr. Smith wants to take that question.

[Alister Smith]

I can answer the first part of the question on the transfers.

We seek approval for transfers as well as for increases in funding in the supplementary estimates. That's why it's listed as a transfer.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

That answers my question.

[Michelle d'Auray]

It is, strictly speaking, a transfer, because it is the amalgamation of the two organizations. For the funds to be reflected in Treasury Board Secretariat vote 1, operating funds, we have to demonstrate the transfer from CPSA vote 1 to Treasury Board vote 1 as the approval process from a parliamentary appropriations perspective. It is not new money; it literally is a transfer.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

I'd ask, then, in the context of this transfer, is there anything changing in the duties or the functions that used to be performed by the agency? Is there anything being sacrificed within this merger?

[Michelle d'Auray]

Madam Chair, there are some changes, and they were pronounced when the organizational changes were made by the Prime Minister in February 2009 and the office of the chief human resources officer was created. I was the first to hold that position, as of March 2.

The main components of the change were to recognize the role of the deputy ministers in managing and being responsible for the management of people in their organizations. As a result, the roles and responsibilities of the new organization were to assist and support deputy ministers in those functions rather than prescribe ways in which things should be done. It's more of an overarching policy direction, if I can put it that way, than a prescription, and that requires a different approach and way of doing things.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Thank you. I have to give others time.

Madam Coady, you have five minutes.

[Siobhan Coady, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Mr. Minister and officials, for being here this afternoon.

I'd like to first turn to the departmental performance report on the estimates regarding the Public Appointments Commission Secretariat. There were moneys allocated for that secretariat. You've made 876 appointments in the last year. I'm wondering whether the secretariat is now fully functional and whether those 876 positions or appointments were vetted through this process.

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Yes, that's the function of the PCO, and they can provide that information to you.

[Siobhan Coady, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

You certainly have an oversight function on this particular secretariat, and I'm sure you have some role or mechanisms or means of knowing whether or not the secretariat is up and functional. It comes under some of your—

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

I'm advised that we don't have an overview function in relation to it.

[Siobhan Coady, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Okay. That's unbelievable, but thank you.

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

I don't know whether perhaps some of the officials.... If I could be corrected on that, I'd be happy to be corrected.

[Michelle d'Auray]

Madam Chair, no, the Treasury Board Secretariat does not have an oversight function over the Privy Council Office in this particular area or any other area.

[Siobhan Coady, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Hmm. It's interesting that your task is to ensure that taxpayers are receiving value for their money. I just thought you'd have something to contribute there.

Hearing not, I'll move on to the supplementary estimates and the $713 million you're looking for in new appropriations.

You talk here about new collective agreements, and of course you note the Expenditure Restraint Act and cite “responsible spending during one of the worst economic crises in living memory”. I'm just going to use your words in that particular instance.

Of course, we know that under the Expenditure Restraint Act you reopened a signed collective agreement and basically legislated a wage settlement for the Public Service Alliance of Canada. I wonder what you think are going to be the impacts. Do you have specific data or analysis that you've done on how these cuts to the Public Service Alliance are going to affect service levels?

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Let me say, first of all, that, as I understand it, there were no cuts in any wages per se. The wages of people earning a certain level of money were not cut.

There were certain agreements that had been entered into in which there was an increase above the 1.5%, and those increases were brought back to that 1.5%. We thought, in view of the tremendous economic recession and the fact that taxpayers in the private sector as well as the public sector were paying for the public sector, with many in the private sector losing their positions—certainly in southern Ontario in the manufacturing areas—that the 1.5% increase was a fair one, in view of the hardships that taxpayers themselves were suffering during this very difficult time.

I've been a public servant for most of my career. I spent some time in the private sector, but as a public servant, one of the things I believe most public servants believe is that their responsibility is to the taxpayer and is to deliver the level of service that the taxpayer requires of them. I don't believe this Expenditure Restraint Act will have a negative impact on the delivery of service by an individual public servant.