Government Operations Committee on Feb. 26th, 2009

[Rob Anders, Conservative, Calgary West, AB]

Ms. Miller.

[Shereen Miller]

Absolutely. When we look at contract history, we do look at the size of the businesses so that we can pull the information to know whether or not we are servicing.... Essentially 99.9% of all Canadian businesses are small and medium enterprises. It is a big focus.

The way the numbers work, we're looking at the value of contracts let by Public Works. In 2005-2006, 43% went to SMEs. In 2006-2007, 46% went to SMEs. In 2007-2008, 49% went to SMEs.

We look at the various spend cube data. We look at the data related to contract history. We look essentially at the way in which government procurement has been done and how Public Works moneys have been let, and who the contracts have gone to in order to establish whether or not they've gone to SMEs.

Does that answer the question?

[Rob Anders, Conservative, Calgary West, AB]

Let's stop at that point and go back to Ms. Pohlmann.

Ms. Pohlmann, how do you feel about that response? Do you have any follow-up?

[Corinne Pohlmann]

I would love to see a lot more detail around it. It's the first time we've heard that kind of information. I know that's partly because we've been pushing hard to get that kind of information out of OSME, so I'm glad to hear that they're actually looking at the value a little bit better.

I guess it goes back to what the performance objectives of OSME or of a public policy overall are when it comes to small and medium-sized business procurement. Are we reaching those objectives? Are we putting in benchmarks with which to do that?

[Rob Anders, Conservative, Calgary West, AB]

Ms. Miller.

[Shereen Miller]

As I was starting to mention, our objectives are threefold. Our first objective is to reach out to SMEs across the country so that we can cover a large geographic territory. Our second objective obviously is to link the demand with the supply so that suppliers are aware of opportunities the federal government has to offer, as well as client departments knowing what Canadian suppliers can provide. The third thing we do is to conduct economic analysis along the lines that I was just asked about, in order to be able to put our finger on the pulse of the situation related to small and medium-sized enterprises.

In relation to the first, I would also like to clarify, while it is true that we do have six regional offices for OSME, our work is actually a lot in the rural areas. In fact, I brought with me today the calendar of events of some of the courses and outreach things we do. This is just broad strokes, but in looking at it for a sampling, we have events in places like Deline, Northwest Territories; Burlington, Ontario; Vaughan, Ontario; Moncton, New Brunswick; and Quebec City, Mont-Tremblant, and Kamouraska in Quebec.

In any case, we regularly have the opportunity to meet with representatives of small and medium enterprises across Canada, and we do so in small cities. We work very closely with the chambers of commerce and associations like theirs in order to ensure that we have a very broad impact. We often provide advice to associations like these two—

[Rob Anders, Conservative, Calgary West, AB]

Thank you.

Ms. Pohlmann, a short follow-up.

[Corinne Pohlmann]

The idea of the OSME is something we support. We were actually part of the launch of the OSME because we believe there is some necessity for an outreach to small and medium-sized companies so they can better understand that process.

So I do think part of the problem is that they are not well understood; they are not well known. I know there is outreach and seminars that can be done. Unfortunately, in many small businesses, they don't have the time or the ability to go to these types of seminars. That is part of why it's not well known.

However, I do want to put on the table that we are not opposed to the concept of OSME and what it's trying to achieve. It is not so much that we have an issue with OSME as that we have an issue with some of the policies within public works when it comes to the contracts they're putting out.

[Rob Anders, Conservative, Calgary West, AB]

Mont-Tremblant sounds nice, but I wonder how many small businesses have a chance to frequent the place.

Mr. Chair, I enjoyed that. I hope the committee did.

[The Chair, Liberal, Derek Lee]

I think we all think you have some potential as a talk-show host.

We will go to Mr. Dewar for an opening round, but focused on CFIB. We actually can't get a full eight minutes in.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Right, so I'm going to be brief.

Thank you, Chair, and thanks to the committee. Of course, I'm substituting for my colleague Mr. Martin, because the issue is very important to many of my constituents and SMEs here in Ottawa. So I'll get right to it.

When you look at the process and have identified some of the problems, have you had any engagement with the ombudsman? How has that gone?

[Corinne Pohlmann]

Yes, we have met with the ombudsman a few times. We are feeling very optimistic about the role of the ombudsman and what the ombudsman might be able to achieve. Unfortunately it took a long time to get into place. I think they're still trying to get it properly set up, but we are hopeful.

The dispute resolution process, for example, is one of the things that was always missing from the public works process. That's going to be something where they'll at least be able to intervene, plus the element that they're also going to look at best practices and hopefully share that within the government itself, which will be useful as well. Plus, now there's a place to go for businesses that do feel that they have been mistreated, perhaps, in the whole procurement process.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

On that, with the ombudsman—the ombudsperson, actually—do they have your data?

[Corinne Pohlmann]

No. We haven't supplied it to them yet. As I was saying, we haven't published this data yet. This is the first time.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Okay. So I'm assuming you'll share it with government as well.

[Corinne Pohlmann]

They already have it.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

I think that's really important. I'm reading your data and your recommendations and I'm nodding my way through, because many of the people who come to my office are frustrated. They want to do business with government. They want to know that the government is there. They simply sometimes feel as though, as you said, on the request for proposals, that's a barrier for them.

I think there needs to be an opening up. We have both sides here. So this data, along with listening carefully to those SMEs that say they can't even get their foot in the door, is the first thing, getting the application process right.

I had two meetings last week with some SMEs, not on high-tech but on a related issue, around other services. There are common threads throughout.

Lastly, when I look at how they learn about contracts, I'm also nodding, because there seems to be a lot of space, if we can put it that way, for government to get out there. Calibrating the office, as you said, you support, and I do too. I think government has a role here. It is about how to do it better.

Can you tell me just quickly how they can get the message out to SMEs in a better fashion so that it's not the kind of graph I see here?

[Corinne Pohlmann]

Yes, it's never an easy thing.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

No, it's hard.

[Corinne Pohlmann]

It's tough to get information out to small and medium-sized companies. We have in the past worked with OSME in trying to get information out, and with other business organizations.

The big thing that came out of our research was that small businesses say that you have to go to 20 to 30 different sites to figure out where the RFPs are, and that just having governments working together to maybe create one central repository where they can go and get the information they need.... We're starting to see things like BizPaL, which is a website among federal, provincial, and municipal governments on regulations. It is a central repository where businesses can go to get information on all the regulations they need. Why can't we have the levels of government work together on building a similar thing when it comes to government contracts?

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Thank you.

Thank you, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Derek Lee]

Thank you, Mr. Dewar.

We're going to have to show some conspicuous flexibility in the subsequent questioning here. I know Public Works is anxious to get in, as are the other witnesses, so I will go back to a Liberal round now.

I'll go to Ms. Hall Findlay for a flexible five-minute round.

[Martha Hall Findlay, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Given that I only used three of my eight--

[The Chair, Liberal, Derek Lee]

You only used three, which leaves five minutes, and then there's a second round. In theory you could be up to ten minutes here, but--

[Martha Hall Findlay, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

But I volunteered the remaining five.

Before Ms. Pohlmann leaves, though, I actually am publicly extending an invitation to her and Ms. Miller to come and join me in my office.

Let's just have a chat. I am actually very interested outside of committee to learn more about how the processes work. We'll only be able to ask limited questions, and it may actually be fruitful, I think, to engage in a three-way conversation.