Government Operations Committee on March 10th, 2009

[Dan McTeague, Liberal, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

Minister, my scripted lines are not scripted lines; they're accountability for the Canadian public, and you're not prepared to live up to that.

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

No, hold it, it's my turn to answer now.

I know you have your scripted lines. You've made a certain statement, which is completely and utterly false--and you know that.

[Dan McTeague, Liberal, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

How would we know, Minister, when you're not prepared to give information to this committee?

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Hold it, let me finish.

[Dan McTeague, Liberal, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

What is the detail, Minister? You're not prepared to tell us what you're prepared to spend $3 billion on--

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Yes, I am.

[Dan McTeague, Liberal, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

--but you're prepared to come to us.

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Yes, I am.

[Dan McTeague, Liberal, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

Then where are they, Minister?

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

I'm telling you what the process is.

[Dan McTeague, Liberal, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

You're not telling me, Minister. I want to hear the list.

[The Chair, Liberal, Derek Lee]

Order, order.

In fairness, I have to allow the minister a reasonable amount of time to reply.

Mr. Toews.

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Thank you very much.

The process is that the money will be allocated to specific projects between April and June 30.

Mr. Chair, this member knows that the projects are not allocated at this point, but the programs on which they will be spent are in fact specifically set out in our economic action plan. As for the over-the-top kinds of comments that money is going to be dropped from a helicopter, the departments must meet a number of conditions in order to receive money from this fund.

First of all, as I've said, programs or projects must be economic action plan initiatives included in budget 2009 and passed by Parliament. Funds can be allocated only between April and June 30 of this year as bridge funding until money is available through supplementary estimates A or B. Appropriate checks and balances must be in place. Treasury Board approval must be obtained. Existing requirements on accountability--

[Dan McTeague, Liberal, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

Minister, you've left $3 billion.... And I know you're ragging the puck. You've left $3 billion on the floor. Can you tell this committee when you're prepared to give this money, and the projects it's dealing with?

[The Chair, Liberal, Derek Lee]

Mr. McTeague, order.

The minister has to have enough time to get his answer out here.

Minister, did you want to complete your answer?

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Yes. Existing requirements on accountability and reporting must be met. The member is trying to leave this committee with the impression that the requirements on accountability and reporting with respect to the $3 billion are different from the requirements for any other money that is appropriated by Parliament. And what I'm saying is that the only difference--and the member knows it and he's playing games with it--is that instead of this money being allocated by Parliament at a later date, it's done at an earlier date, at April 1. In all other respects the process is identical.

[Dan McTeague, Liberal, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

The minister is playing games with $3 billion of public funds, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Derek Lee]

Thank you, Mr. McTeague.

Now I go to Madame Bourgeois, for a second round.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I would like to inform you that my colleague and I will be sharing our time.

Good morning, Minister. Thank you for coming.

You are asking for authorization to spend $3 billion. Based on what you're saying, you have even simplified the applications to extend programs. Have the programs that you're going to invest further in been assessed and have they reached their objectives and performance indicators?

Earlier, you were saying that we are in an economic crisis and that this seemed quite urgent. However, not much has been done since last fall to resolve this urgent economic crisis. You understand that we are not prepared to give you the green light, to open the door to your spending $3 billion without having you table a plan telling us who and what programs will get that $3 billion.

Just to remind you, Mr. Minister, my colleague also has a question for you.

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Exactly. We will in fact be allocating those funds in the context of the programs identified in Budget 2009. So the projects that will be approved and the moneys allocated for those projects are in fact those contained in the economic action plan. So in that sense, there is a very clear direction in the budget as to what programs it can be spent on. The actual allocation will take place between April 1, when the money is approved, and June 30. There are obviously preliminary discussions that are going on with the provinces and the municipalities, but of course no commitments can be made to the provinces or to the municipalities. But we believe that those commitments can be made in short order after the money has been appropriated by Parliament. Then Treasury Board still has to approve each of the actual projects. So I can't give you a list of the actual projects at this time, prior to Treasury Board approval.

This gets back to the earlier question by the Liberal opposition member. This still has to go to Treasury Board. How can I give you a list of projects that have not followed due process? It would be irresponsible for me to even suggest that could be done.

[Jean-Yves Roy, Bloc, Haute-Gaspésie—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Good day, Mr. Minister. I have a very specific question for you.

The Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans has asked the Treasury Board for years to invest significant funds in small craft harbours. Fisheries and Oceans is responsible for 800 small craft harbours in Canada, and the majority of these harbours are in a terrible state. Currently, the Department of Fisheries and Oceans has said that it will take approximately $500 million just to repair the harbours and wharves that belong to it.

Minister, in the budget you announced a very small amount for small craft harbours compared to the needs identified by the Department of Fisheries and Oceans. Would it not have been more reasonable to take that $3 billion and heavily invest first in federal infrastructure? I was talking to you about Fisheries and Oceans, but I could also have been talking about the Department of Transport, which is facing the same problem concerning federal infrastructure. In fact, I could be speaking to you about all of the departments responsible for infrastructure in need of repair. Would it not have been better for the federal government to first invest heavily in its own infrastructure? Investing first in the repair of its own infrastructure would have accelerated the process.

I am coming to the very specific question that I want to ask you, Minister. How did you prioritize, if you didn't even invest in repairing your own infrastructure? I would repeat that the Department of Fisheries and Oceans has assessed needs at $500 million. For five years, I sat on that committee and for the past seven years this committee has been asking for funds but has only received crumbs every year. During that time, infrastructure has been crumbling. This infrastructure belongs to the federal government and I feel that it is a priority.

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Thank you very much. I appreciate that question, and I think that's a good point, that the federal government should not only be partnering with the provinces and municipalities in terms of matters that lie essentially within provincial jurisdiction but indeed take care of its own infrastructure. It was for that reason that we did announce in our budget document the funding for small craft harbours. Budget 2009 provides up to $200 million on a cash basis to deal with the issue of small craft harbours.

Now, you've quoted a figure of $500 million. I don't know whether that's accurate. I'm going to take you at face value that it is an accurate number. That deficit in terms of improving small craft harbours didn't occur overnight, and we're addressing those in a measured and timely way. For example, the economic action plan actually allocates $89 million for this fiscal year for small craft harbours. That, I would say, is a substantial amount of money. It's perhaps not as much as the member would like, but it's better than voting against the bill entirely and giving nothing.

[Jean-Yves Roy, Bloc, Haute-Gaspésie—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Minister, $89 million is close to being crumbs. These figures come from the Department of Fisheries and Oceans. You can check them. This $500 million figure has been checked. I am not pulling numbers out of thin air. I am referring only to Fisheries and Oceans; imagine what the situation is at the Department of Transport.

Most of these projects have already been assessed and checked. We know exactly what needs to be done. For example, in Quebec, all infrastructure has been assessed twice over a three-year period. Eighty-nine million dollars will not solve the problems, it is going to take $500 million. This would have been one way to create jobs very quickly. These projects are shovel-ready and the department could have started them, if it had been given sufficient funds.

You said you wanted to move forward quickly. You would have had the perfect opportunity to do so, since these projects have already been assessed and are shovel-ready.

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

In fact, as I indicated, there is money available for many of these initiatives. The budget and the economic action plan in fact indicate a number of initiatives that we want to undertake in respect of federal infrastructure. The member is correct in saying that many of these have already been assessed, and especially in the area of federal jurisdiction, where it's not dependent upon provincial or municipal concurrence or contributions, we could move on a more timely basis. For example, the economic action plan speaks about the improved rail system for $141 million, the Trans-Canada Highway for $20 million, and federal bridges for $43 million. I've mentioned the small craft harbours and the repair and restoration of federal buildings for $158 million. In fact, in the economic action plan there's approximately $383 million identified in this fiscal year for federal-alone projects--that is, projects falling within federal jurisdiction.

[Jean-Yves Roy, Bloc, Haute-Gaspésie—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Minister, why not start with these projects? It would have been much simpler.