Government Operations Committee on May 10th, 2010

[François Guimont]

André Morin used to be part of my office. We rotate people.

I was not called on these things, my staff were. I probably simply opined the way he wrote it, that we should get the structured approach whenever we get the phone call about setting up a meeting, which may be totally proper. How do we proceed, who is called in, etc. That was very simply that.

I just want to be clear that I don't necessarily get those phone calls directly, but my office--the deputy minister's office or the associate deputy minister--may be in contact with the minister's office on requests that may be coming. It's quite natural. That's why I have various staffers supporting me.

[Martha Hall Findlay, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Madam Coady.

To be clear, we love information, so we don't want to cut you off. Our frustration is that we have so little time in order to get the information. In fact it's very refreshing to have you be so keen to volunteer as much information as you have.

I had asked a question in the first round that did not have a chance to be answered, and I will add a second one. The first one referred to the expenditure review report that was done in 2005, which had significant recommendations. I wanted to know what, if any, of the recommendations from that report were in fact undertaken at PWGSC.

And the second question is that the Auditor General, as you know, issued a report relatively recently, a relatively scathing report on information technology. PWGSC did not escape the review. Some significantly challenging comments were made by the Auditor General.

I note the one area in the PWGSC numbers for the main estimates that is actually proposed to go down is information technology. That is of significant concern, particularly in light of the Auditor General's report.

If you could answer both of those questions, I'd much appreciate it.

[François Guimont]

Thank you for the questions. They are clear, so I'll remain focused.

With regard to 2005, the reference is made to the approach we took in the context of the way forward, and more specifically the savings that were to be accrued out of the approach we would take, for example, in changing the footprint. We had a footprint per employee of 21 square metres, on average; we went down to 18 square metres. These are essentially savings. There are investments to be made, but ultimately savings.

If I remember, we were able to meet the target to about 80%. This was successful. These resources have been essentially taken from the real property budget. We moved from that footprint that was more substantial in nature to a smaller footprint and we effected the savings.

With respect to the second point, on the IT, you're right, we have had challenges expressed by the OAG. I agree with her assessment, and I was quite clear in the response of the department.

There are two points I will make on that. The place where I have more challenges is in a properly defined and integrated IT investment plan. We have bits and pieces in the department. For years at the department it's been a bit of an amalgam of various components that came through time--the latest in 1993--but we had various bits and pieces that came together, and now we're forming a department. We have bits and pieces of a plan, but it's not integrated. If it's not integrated, you don't totally understand what your risk is. We're running big systems and you should totally understand your risk.

More importantly, an integrated investment plan means you're going to be putting in money. Right now, with my management team, I am essentially putting together an investment reserve to be able to fuel the investments that need to be done every year so that my legacy systems are corrected and my new systems are working correctly.

So we do acknowledge the need to move in that direction.

[Martha Hall Findlay, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

All of that sounds good, except that I still don't understand how that means that you are going to be better off because the department is reducing its spending on IT. I'm all for more efficient spending on IT, but—

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

A very brief response.

[François Guimont]

Actually, spending on IT will augment.... We have a substantial investment in pension modernization, which is a huge system, more than $200 million over seven years. That's taking place now. So we do have also augmentations. I will have to reinvest in my basic legacy systems, and like most departments, I'm going to have to reallocate, but there will be a major influx of resources coming. As an example, I say it again, the pension modernization is substantial, and I did a migration two years ago of our financial management system—

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Mr. Guimont, I have two more people who want to ask questions.

Madame Faille, five minutes.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Thank you.

In fact, I would like to go deeper into the question of possible expenditures. I would like to know something. PWGSC awards various contracts. Some companies take over the contracts. What I'm talking about is the fact that a company that gets a contract can turn it over to another company. In some cases, the invitation to tender provides for transition periods, but in other cases there are none.

I would like to give a very specific example. For computer contracts, there are often additional costs that weren't provided for. One I am thinking of is the CGI contract in 2007. When the contract was signed, CGI had to pay for additional costs that were not originally planned for.

I'll give another example, to put you on the right track. The federal employees relocation program provides for a transition period, for speedy market entry. Why do some cases have that and not others? Where is that in your estimates?

[François Guimont]

Madam Chair, I am not familiar with the case of CGI. However, I am familiar with the case of the IRP, because that was on my watch.

Whether or not to have a transition period is something that comes from our employees, but it was also mentioned in our consultation with members of the industry. For example, when the Industry Day is held, we may meet people who say they need a transition period, and often they give us a figure.

When the request is made, there is often a possibility of interaction. But if people don't like what they see on MERX, they can also send us written comments, to which we have to respond, and we do that. Not only do we respond to those people, but the responses are shared with everyone. Ultimately, they have the period of time we want to give for the transition.

That is how I understand transition periods. If we want to do a migration, or there is a migration, people will tell us what they consider to be a reasonable period.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

On your watch, have you made sure that the contracts contained these clauses?

[François Guimont]

I do it when they are necessary, yes.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

That brings me to my next question. You indicated that you are familiar with the relocation program. Who manages the contract and the contractor's commitments? Is it Public Works and Government Services Canada? The client is primarily the Department of National Defence.

[François Guimont]

We established the competition. We make up what we call the contract management group, which means we are responsible for that. The primary clients are DND, the RCMP and the rest of the public service.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

But the contractor has specific commitments.

[François Guimont]

They are commitments made to PWGSC.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

What section is involved here?

[François Guimont]

It is the Acquisitions Branch. A person would be responsible for administration of the contract. But that is part of the Acquisitions Branch.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Thank you.

In the request for expressions of interest or information, how many months were provided for the transition?

[François Guimont]

Unfortunately, I don't remember the number of months. I just know that, based on the comments that followed the consultation and that were received via MERX, we allowed the maximum possible time. We did an adjustment to the period of time allowed. Although I don't remember the number of months, I know we adjusted the period of time as much as possible.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

I had a document that referred to six months for the request for expressions of interest or the information request. In fact, the people who responded to the invitation to tender or who expressed their interest in this business opportunity never had six months to prepare. I think the contract was awarded in the summer and they had to be able to take over on December 1.

Were those costs provided for in the contract?

[François Guimont]

I know the period you're talking about. It was observed by the fairness monitor, who is a third party. That person decided that the period of time for the transition was fair and issued an opinion accordingly.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Mr. Warkentin, we have two minutes if you want to go for it.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

Some of my questions have been answered by the members opposite. I think Mr. Bruinooge has one question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Mr. Bruinooge.

[Rod Bruinooge, Conservative, Winnipeg South, MB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Before I ask the question, I'm going to give the committee notice, through you, of my intention to introduce a motion calling Mr. Lee before our committee. I know we've been studying the activities related to lobbying as of late, so I'm going to put forward that motion to you. Perhaps we can debate that at our next meeting.

I'll move on to my question. I know it's been brought up by a number of other MPs that there has been some focus recently in the media on the precincts. I would like to get a little more analysis from you on the transition out of West Block to the Sparks Street location.

I happen to be one of the MPs, like Mr. Martin, who will be making that transition. Perhaps you can speak a bit on some of the plans that have gone into that, the financing of that move, and whether or not it's on schedule for this fall, as has been reported.