Oh, oh!
Evidence of meeting #17 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was gillani.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #17 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was gillani.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:15 p.m.
Voices
Oh, oh!
4:15 p.m.
Bloc
Michel Guimond Bloc Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute-Côte-Nord, QC
As far as you know, how does Mr. Gillani earn his living? What does he do? With you, he seemed to say he was doing a lot of canvassing, that he was making contacts, without necessarily getting a lot of contracts. He seemed essentially to be canvassing. How do you think he earns his living?
4:15 p.m.
Bloc
Michel Guimond Bloc Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute-Côte-Nord, QC
If I summarize your testimony—I won't put any words in your month, but I'd like you to tell me whether you agree—you're simply telling us that Mr. Gillani is a con man. Is that correct?
4:15 p.m.
Bloc
Michel Guimond Bloc Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute-Côte-Nord, QC
You're also saying that Mr. Gillani is an individual whom one would do better to avoid. Is that correct?
4:15 p.m.
Bloc
Michel Guimond Bloc Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute-Côte-Nord, QC
I'm now going back to his relations with Rahim Jaffer, former Conservative member of Parliament and former President of the National Conservative Caucus. How could a man like Gillani be interested in doing business with Rahim Jaffer? What do you think was the benefit of doing business with Rahim Jaffer?
4:15 p.m.
As an Individual
All successful con artists work a scheme of communication and confidence. From what I've seen of Mr. Gillani's conduct, this is a confidence game. In this case, Mr. Gillani earned the confidence of a family member who had access to Mr. Jaffer and arranged the introduction of the two of them. I believe he has made a reference to sharing a religious affiliation with Mr. Jaffer.
4:15 p.m.
Bloc
Michel Guimond Bloc Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute-Côte-Nord, QC
Yes, if I pursue the thought, earning Mr. Jaffer's confidence also meant securing the contacts that the latter could provide him, political contacts among the Conservatives that Mr. Jaffer could provide him.
Mr. Gillani does not deny that he sent an email on Friday, September 11. In that email, he said he had had quite an overwhelming experience the previous evening, during a dinner with Rahim Jaffer and Dr. Chen. He said that Mr. Jaffer had opened the door of the Prime Minister's Office to them.
What do you think does opening the door to the Prime Minister's office mean?
4:15 p.m.
Bloc
Michel Guimond Bloc Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute-Côte-Nord, QC
That's not true, Madam Chair?
We're going to let Mr. Snowdy answer.
4:15 p.m.
As an Individual
That email to me and to the clients was interpreted to mean that if they were doing business with Mr. Gillani and paying Mr. Gillani his fees, he would utilize his business relationship with Mr. Jaffer to find government grants and fundings for them to continue and finance their business.
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
Patrick Brown Conservative Barrie, ON
Thank you, Madam Chairman.
I want to follow up on the first round of questioning.
Originally when this issue came to the forefront in the House of Commons, we saw Liberal MPs such as Wayne Easter saying ferociously that Helena Guergis should be kicked out of cabinet, and it couldn't have been a day too soon. All of a sudden that changed, and then it was, “How come you kicked Helena Guergis out of cabinet?” This makes me wonder why we've seen this change in the Liberal Party position. Maybe it has to do with the person that you described as the getaway driver for this serial fraudster, as you have described Mr. Gillani.
Could we start off by having you describe what you meant when you said “getaway driver” in reference to Alfred Apps, who, once again, is the president of the Liberal Party of Canada?
4:20 p.m.
As an Individual
Obviously when you retain a lawyer to represent you and act in your interests, the lawyer becomes privy to your conduct and your matters.
In the case of Aerofoam Metals, Mr. Gillani holds them out as his client, and a successful client, when in fact they were not a client of ISI, but a client of his previous company, Otnorot Holdings. These people were looking to them to support their business, to finance them, to allow them to continue in the business. When they objected to Mr. Gillani's conduct--they were paying for moneys, and he was receiving moneys from investors, but never forwarding it on to them--and decided they'd try to walk away from Mr. Gillani, he used the legal process to put a claim against them, to burn up the remaining capital, and basically to force the company into an insolvent position.
The lawyer involved in getting that together obviously becomes aware of how his client conducts himself, and the counterclaim to that action lays out Mr. Gillani's egregious conduct in technicolor.
The person who uses the squeeze.... Mr. Apps is not an associate at a small firm. When Mr. Gillani embarks on dragging someone whose name is important into his business dealings, obviously there's a bit of fear and intimidation that comes with it. My interpretation of that is that this is somebody who had full knowledge of how Mr. Gillani conducts himself.
Mr. Gillani was very much the subject of that article in the Toronto Star on April 8, so when you have a....
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
Patrick Brown Conservative Barrie, ON
You believe Mr. Apps had full knowledge of the way Mr. Gillani conducted himself.
4:20 p.m.
As an Individual
Absolutely. Mr. Gillani told people that Mr. Apps represented him. We found Mr. Apps' fingerprints on this litigation, and it's a cookie cutter for the other frauds he committed.
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
Patrick Brown Conservative Barrie, ON
He wasn't only the getaway driver; you also said previously that he sent him business.
4:20 p.m.
As an Individual
I recently learned that as recently as March of this year, an email was sent from Gillani representing that potential clients had been referred to him by Mr. Apps. I understand that Mr. Apps has interpreted his meeting with Mr. Gillani in March a little differently, but again, prior to all of this hullabaloo, they were known to one another and in fact did have a previous relationship.
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
Patrick Brown Conservative Barrie, ON
This sounds like a much closer relationship than what is typical between a lawyer and a client. I practised law before politics. I never got involved in recommending business to clients. It seems an unusual step.
Do you know when the relationship began between the president of the Liberal Party and Mr. Gillani?
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
4:20 p.m.
As an Individual
I would say it goes at least three or four years back, to 2006 or 2007 at least, and possibly longer.
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
Patrick Brown Conservative Barrie, ON
Is it possible that Mr. Gillani has a relationship with other prominent Liberals?
