Government Operations Committee on May 27th, 2010

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

Madam Chair, I have a point of order. I'd like to ask you a question in terms of the relevance of this particular commentary, which presupposes questions the committee might ask. This person, who is not currently sitting as a member of the committee, is presuming those questions. I'd like to ask you to rule on relevance so that we can get on with this meeting, please.

[Marlene Jennings, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

May I speak to it, Madam Chair?

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

It's now officially a filibuster.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Mr. Holder, the clerk says it is relevant. Therefore, she is allowed to continue.

[Marlene Jennings, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

Thank you.

Madam Chair, when I am asking these rhetorical, hypothetical questions and providing answers that have already been put into the public domain by Mr. Lee, it is in support of my motion that this committee set aside the motion that it adopted unanimously to call Mr. Lee before us here and to look into the allegations of lobbying activities on his part and violations of the conflict of interest code for members of the House of Commons. It's to provide material support for my motion.

[Rod Bruinooge, Conservative, Winnipeg South, MB]

Madam Chair, I have a point of order. Perhaps Madam Jennings would like to call the question on that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

She is presenting a motion to put aside the motion. As she's doing it, she is allowed to debate. I cannot call the question unless she finishes her debate, her presentation of arguments.

[Marlene Jennings, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair. I take note of Mr. Bruinooge's suggestion. I will make one further point and then I will move the question.

With regard to the conflict of interest code for members of the House of Commons, Mr. Lee has made it very clear publicly that at no time has he violated any dispositions of the conflict of interest code for members of the House of Commons.

I now move my motion. Call the vote.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Once Ms. Jennings has moved her motion to set aside the motion, my list of speakers will only have to deal with that motion.

Mr. Martin, you're the next speaker. The motion on the floor presented by Ms. Jennings is to set aside the current motion of Mr. Bruinooge because it is not within the mandate of this committee, and the appropriate committee would be the procedure and House affairs committee.

Is that correct, Ms. Jennings?

[Marlene Jennings, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

And/or the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Okay. Mr. Martin will be continuing the debate on this motion.

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

Madam Chair, I have a point of order. I want to clarify the motion; that's what I'm trying to understand. I understand a motion that would impact on this committee. Is this motion suggesting that it impacts on a separate committee as well that is outside of our mandate?

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Ms. Jennings is suggesting that we set this motion aside because according to the mandate of the government operations committee it does not belong to this committee. It can belong to the procedure and House affairs committee or the access to information committee. Those are the two committees it could go to. That is the motion.

Mr. Martin has the floor.

[Marlene Jennings, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

May I just make a point, Madam Chair?

To clarify to Mr. Holder, I am not suggesting that this committee again extend beyond its mandate and refer the matter to another committee. I am simply making an affirmative declaration in my motion that should any member wish to pursue the matter, they should properly do so before one of these other two committees, who in their power and authority can determine whether or not they wish to deal with it. It would be up to them.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Fair enough.

Mr. Martin.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

I'm sitting here getting more angry by the moment. They parachute in two of their most senior lawyers to bafflegab the work of our committee. Neither of these Liberal members is a member of this committee. They were both sent here because they're experienced MPs, both lawyers, and one with an exceptional gift of the gab—

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

I don't think he's referring to me.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

—and she's already in the process of concluding, after debating and summarizing the issue, that Mr. Lee has never done anything wrong to anything or anybody at any time in his life or in his 22-year career.

Mr. Lee's intervention at the beginning, if we ever give him another chance to talk, was really quite helpful, because, first of all, he asked you for a ruling—which we're still awaiting, Madam Chair. He opened his remarks by saying that if it were determined that this committee doesn't actually have the jurisdiction to deal with the issue, the downside is that the Speaker might not accept the report when we table it in Parliament. His other two speculations, including the point that other witnesses before committee might then not be protected by privilege, we don't know to be the case. It's something that he put forward as a possibility.

I think we have every right to investigate this matter in the context of the administration of programs and departments of the Government of Canada and to determine if there was ever undue influence by lobbyists associated with the application and administration of those programs. We started in the context of the green infrastructure fund. That has opened doors and led us to an awareness of what could be a serious violation of the Lobbyists Registration Act. I was a founding member of this committee, the government operations committee, in this room, with Reg Alcock as the chair. At that time, the Lobbyists Registration Act was one of the things that was put under the Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates, in the absence of any other place for it to be plunked. So we were the catch-all committee in a lot of these areas.

Now we have a document right here from Mr. Lee's biography on the website of Sun & Partners that says that one of his jobs is lobbying government on policy issues as well as facilitating intergovernmental relations, advising government bodies on international issues regarding cross-border tax collection, anti-dumping issues, etc., reviewing policies and conduct of the Canadian Security Intelligence Services, and securing regulatory and government approvals for mergers and acquisitions. It just so happens by coincidence that Mr. Lee sits on the scrutiny of regulations committee.

We can't ignore this, and as a committee we'd be irresponsible to ignore this. I suggest that we take this as far as we can, and if it so happens that the report of the committee, as put together by all four political parties in the House of Commons, is tabled in the House of Commons and the Speaker can't accept it, we will still have done a public service by investigating this matter. As a courtesy to Mr. Lee, who I've known and respected for years, we should give him the opportunity to answer these allegations and answer the questions of the committee members without any further delay.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Mr. Brown.

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I wholeheartedly agree with the comments of Mr. Martin. I too had the same surprise today, coming in to see brand new members of the Liberals and to see their most verbose and eloquent filibusterers joining us today. I think it's obviously a very intentional move by the Liberals to make sure this isn't going to see the light of day. I think it's unfortunate. It's also a little bit disingenuous, to tell you the truth. A few weeks ago, we had Ms. Coady in here talking about how important and pertinent it was to the government operations committee to study lobbying. Now to have the same party arguing the exact opposite position is really tough to rationalize.

I also find it surprising that when committee meetings have gone on before, the Liberals have argued that we couldn't waste time with these types of filibusters, and now they're undertaking the same process themselves. I think it's unfortunate, because we've scheduled this extra time, and we've wasted an opportunity and wasted some good time with the government operations committee.

I actually think you're doing your colleague Mr. Lee a great disservice. I actually thought we would come here today and give Mr. Lee an opportunity to tell us what actions he took against Sun & Partners; whether he authorized the website, and if he didn't authorize it, how he had gone about having Sun & Partners address that if they had done this; whether it had served them well in the law firm; and what compensation he sought from Sun & Partners to make up for this claim they had on the website to buttress their own reputation.

I thought this would be an excellent opportunity for Mr. Lee to clear the air. I think by not giving Mr. Lee an opportunity to answer questions, unfortunately you leave a cloud of suspicion. By not giving him an opportunity to respond to any questions, you leave us with an impression that there's something to hide. I think it's very unfortunate that you engage in these political games of filibustering to remove any opportunity for the government operations committee to do its job. So I certainly will not support the motion put forward by the temporary member of this government operations committee.

I really hope we don't see further meetings of the government operations committee wasted, because I would like to actually clear the air and do our job and get to the bottom of this. As I said, it's highly disingenuous for one to change one's exact same position regarding whether it's the responsibility of the government operations committee to look at lobbying and alleged influence peddling. It's unfortunate to see these games afoot. I really hope we can quickly dismiss this motion, and hopefully we're not going to see another one of this committee's meetings wasted on this.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Mr. Warkentin.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

Madam Chair, we do know that Mr. Lee has confirmed that he did see a copy of the biography prior to it being up on the website of Sun & Partners. The biography reads, and I'm quoting:

...include acting for foreign and offshore organizations in obtaining operating licenses, securing regulatory and governmental approvals for mergers and acquisitions...advising government bodies on international issues regarding cross-border tax collection, anti-dumping issues, and lobbying government...

Let's remember what it says here:

...and lobbying government on policy issues as well as facilitating inter-governmental relationships.

We had Mr. Jaffer and his partners before the committee because of a statement that was made on a website. These websites are intended to solicit business. They solicit business either for Mr. Lee directly or through his partnership with the law firm on whose website this biography appeared. So to state that Mr. Lee didn't benefit financially from having this on the website doesn't mean that his partners didn't financially benefit from this being included on their website. We need to have Mr. Lee clear the air. We need to understand why, when he saw what his biography on the website would include, he didn't raise some type of condition, or why, if he didn't think it was correct, he didn't correct it before it went on. It's been on there for years. Why in that duration of time did he take no action to correct it, especially when we saw that there was suspicion being brought forward about other people undertaking this type of conduct?

Clearly we need to have these questions answered. We need to have them answered by this committee, because it's the same committee that brought forward the same allegations in order to investigate the green fund. Now we want to specifically undertake a review of whether in fact Mr. Lee has had an impact on the specific areas he claims, on the website of Sun & Partners, he'd have an influence on. Those are government operations business areas. Clearly, talking about acquisitions of foreign companies and making regulatory changes to assist certain companies would be within this committee's mandate, so I think it's important that we now set aside the next meeting to undertake this study.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Thank you, Mr. Warkentin.

Mr. Lee.

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Do colleagues mind if I intervene here?