Evidence of meeting #21 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was point.
A recording is available from Parliament.
3:30 p.m.
Liberal
3:30 p.m.
An hon. member
[Inaudible--Editor]
3:30 p.m.
Liberal
3:30 p.m.
Conservative
Jacques Gourde Conservative Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC
Madam Chair, I would like to raise a question of privilege.
3:30 p.m.
Liberal
3:30 p.m.
Conservative
Jacques Gourde Conservative Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC
Madam Chair, it is my opinion that the rights and privileges of the members of this committee have been infringed upon. I would therefore like to lodge a formal complaint.
At our last committee meeting on Monday, May 31, 2010, you informed us that Mr. Nazim Gillani had sent a bundle of documents to the committee. Madam Chair, you indicated at the time that there were 725 pages of documents and that these were in one official language only. The committee discussed at length whether or not to distribute the documents until they were translated. A number of valid arguments were raised by committee members.
I'm going to wait until I have your attention, Madam Chair. Are you listening to me?
3:30 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Yasmin Ratansi
I'm listening to you and I'm also asking for verification of the blues--
3:30 p.m.
Conservative
Jacques Gourde Conservative Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC
I'll finish what I have to say and then you can inquire about that.
3:30 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Yasmin Ratansi
Yes, I'm listening to you. Women can do multi-tasking quite well, so I'm listening to you.
3:30 p.m.
Some hon. members
Oh, oh!
3:30 p.m.
Conservative
Jacques Gourde Conservative Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC
Madam Chair, the documents in question must be translated before they can be distributed to members. Mr. Nadeau, my Bloc Québécois colleague, made some excellent points. Specifically, he said this:
[...] the two official languages are French and English. That being the case, then the clerk's office has a responsibility to ensure that the documents are translated for the benefit of committee members.
I tabled a motion calling for all documents to be translated and the committee unanimously endorsed it. I'm sure all members remember my motion. I know that Mr. Martin from the NDP agreed that all members should have equal access to documents. That's why I'm very concerned, Madam Chair, and why I'd like to know if the documents that Mr. Gillani recently turned over to the committee were sent to members of the media before they were translated and before the committee members for whom they were originally intended had access to them. We know the documents were circulated to the press because mention was made of them yesterday in a Canadian Press release. Canadian Press reported that the documents had recently been turned over to the Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates. You must certainly know, Madam Chair, that you were the only committee member to have had access to the documents. You said so yourself and, if you will excuse my pronunciation, you said, and I quote, “there are 725 pages of information that I have taken a look at”. Obviously then, you were the one who circulated these documents to the media before they were translated and before members had an opportunity to see them. Therefore, Madam Chair, I would like to move the following motion, and it will be distributed in both English and French:
That the Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates report to the House at the earliest opportunity that the rights and privileges of members on the Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates are believed to have been infringed upon; the Committee therefore requests that the Speaker of the House of Commons investigate this matter in a timely fashion and rule on whether the rights and privileges of members have been infringed upon; and that in the interim the member from Don Valley East should recuse herself temporarily and immediately of all duties as the Chair of the Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates.
3:35 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Yasmin Ratansi
Thank you, Mr. Gourde.
You have made an accusation. I had no access to the documents that were in the clerk's possession. He advised me that it was irrelevant--that there were a lot of documents that were irrelevant--and that it was in English. So we brought it to the committee's attention. And whoever has released it to the media...it could be Mr. Gillani; I have no idea who has released it to the media.
The clerk informs me that your motion is out of order, because you cannot instruct the Speaker to do anything.
With that, I'd like to ensure....
Yes, Monsieur Guimond.
3:35 p.m.
Bloc
Michel Guimond Bloc Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute-Côte-Nord, QC
I will wait until you have finished responding, Madam Chair. My point of order concerns an entirely different matter.
3:35 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Yasmin Ratansi
I have actually responded to it, because, one, the gentleman in question is being ungentlemanly and making accusations that he cannot back, and two, the clerk advises me that his motion is out of order. So we proceed.
Mr. Guimond.
3:35 p.m.
Bloc
Michel Guimond Bloc Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute-Côte-Nord, QC
I have a point of order.
Madam Chair—
3:35 p.m.
An hon. member
Madam Chair--
3:35 p.m.
An hon member
Okay, I'll wait until later.
3:35 p.m.
Liberal
3:35 p.m.
Bloc
Michel Guimond Bloc Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute-Côte-Nord, QC
Madam Chair, I see that our witnesses are present, namely Mr. Doug Maley, Assistant Deputy Minister, Alberta Region, and Mr. André C. Morin, Valuation and Payments in Lieu of Taxes Programs. However, I would like to know why the Minister of Transport, Infrastructure and Communities, the Minister of State (Science and Technology) (Federal Economic Development Agency for Southern Ontario) and the Minister of Natural Resources are here today, given that they were not invited to testify.
Madam Chair, committees are an extension and a creation of the House of Commons. The rules that govern the proceedings of the House of Commons also apply to committee operations. However, our Standing Orders are more explicit when it comes to witnesses in committee because, as you know, witnesses are not permitted on the floor of the House of Commons. In committee, however, witnesses are generally present for reports and studies. The generally accepted principle is that committees are master of their own proceedings. As such, the committee decides who it would like to call as a witness. At this time, I would like to read from page 1063 of House of Commons Procedure and Practice where the following is noted:
Witness selection may be carried out in a number of different ways. Generally, witnesses are proposed by individual committee members. The committee may also invite potential witnesses to indicate their interest in appearing. The selection is often delegated to the subcommittee on procedure and agenda, subject to the ratification by the main committee. [...] It is the committee's responsibility to determine which witnesses it will hear. Practical considerations, such as the length of time allocated for a study, may limit the number of witnesses the committee will be able to accommodate.
Madam Chair, it is not up to the witnesses to decide when they will appear before the committee, much less to appear in place of other witnesses who have been called to testify. Through their actions, the Conservatives, and in particular the three ministers that have come here today, are displaying arrogance and contempt for the committee, which was democratically constituted pursuant to the Standing Orders of the House of Commons. They are showing contempt for the democratic process. Once again, the Conservatives are behaving as if they are above the rules. They are demonstrating their utter lack of respect for our democratic institutions like the House of Commons and its committees. They are showing their true colours by exhibiting their utter contempt for Parliament. Their actions prove, Madam Chair, that they are incapable of living with democracy, as this committee is a by-product of democratic will. The best proof we have of this is the composition of this committee. Government members are in the minority on this committee, just as the Conservatives form a minority Parliament, further to the exercise of the democratic will of the people of Quebec and of Canada. By coming here today, these ministers are displaying their arrogance.
Last May 25, Mr. Hill, the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons, attempted to bring in a new set of rules governing the appearance of witnesses. He announced that political staffers would no longer be permitted to testify before committees.
Mr. Hill decided unilaterally to rewrite the Standing Orders. Since he wasn't happy with the old ones, he decided to rewrite them to suit himself. I'm sorry, but we won't be a party to this charade. It has gone on long enough. You must respect democracy, regardless of what the government leader might think. He can try and strong-arm us all he wants, but there are rules in place here.
Ministerial staffers have been called to testify and they must do so, in accordance with the Standing Orders. They will be subpoenaed. If they chose to ignore the subpoena, we will present a motion to the House of Commons, one that will subsequently be debated. These individuals will be found in contempt of Parliament. When you receive an invitation, sirs, then you can come here and testify.
In fact, the committee invited Mr. Paradis, the Minister of Natural Resources to come and testify on May 4 last, but he declined. And now, he shows up here today, even though he was not invited. When the committee needs to draw on his expertise for a study, then it will invite him back.
Today, Madam Chair, I am asking you to let these uninvited ministers know that they are not welcome here and that we will press ahead with our plans to hear from political staffers who were responsible for decisions that were made. They are the ones we want to hear from. We will invite the ministers back at another time, if that is what the majority of committee members decide.
Thank you.
3:40 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Yasmin Ratansi
Thank you, Mr. Guimond.
I have two people who want to speak to your point of order--Madam Coady and Mr. Holder--and then I will give my decision. Oh, and Mr. Cullen wants to speak.
If I could have each party give their input, then I will render my decision.
Instead of Mr. Holder, you want to be speaking?
3:40 p.m.
An hon. member
No, I'll go after.
3:40 p.m.
Liberal
Siobhan Coady Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL
Thank you very much.
Thank you for that very impassioned presentation. I support you in that the Conservatives do seem to think they're above the rules. They've shut down everything that we've tried to do. They've not answered questions in the House of Commons. They have not been open and transparent in what they've been doing. Practically every step of the way we've had to really squeeze them to give us the information that we require.
I, like you, think our rights and privileges have been really put to the test here under this. We've asked a number of ministers to come before us in previous times and they haven't shown up. We were sitting there with empty chairs. And now they decide they are going to grace us with their presence.
Having said that, we've been asking question after question in the House. We've been asking for answers to the many very serious questions that we have. It's the height of hypocrisy, I think, that in previous times Conservatives demanded staff to come before committee, who always obliged. And now, when they are in the hot seat, they will not allow it to happen--yet they hold their staff accountable for the many things that they do when there are problems.
I think, personally, we have the “Jaffer three” before us today, and I think it is important that we have answers to some of the questions that we have. I do ask, though, that we reserve the right, if we don't get the answers we require from the Jaffer three--the shadow cabinet of Mr. Jaffer--to actually call the staff to show before us at another time.
But I do think that while we have the ministers here today, we should press forward, we should ask the questions. They have been disrespectful to this committee, they have been disrespectful to the people of Canada. And I would like to make sure that we reserve that right to call the staff when and if required.